When to gamble in a SNG? (LAG Opp shoves)

teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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I have been trying to work on my game a bit and focus on 9 man regular SNGs for the past few weeks. I've learned the basics of ICM and read Collin Moshman's book and all that, but I am still having trouble with some hyper aggressive players.

I play the 1.10 SNGs on merge, so perhaps some of you are familiar with these scenarios.

Either

1. You raise 3x in late position, and a LAG, who has been seen to gamble before, shoves/raises half his stack over you from the blinds.

Sometimes I'm looking down at AKo, and I get so pissed, esp since I folded the past 25 hands. Often these players are shoving with any pocket pair. I imagine they would do it with AK as well.

2. (the most annoying and difficult to deal with one) You raise with KJ on the button and get called by the same LAG in the blinds during mid blind play. The flop comes with a flush draw and you hit a pair of Jacks.

The dude just shoves. I have seen this strategy so many times that I have called a few. Sometimes they hold a worse top pair. Sometimes its a flush draw. I think the psychology of it is that they would rather not have to deal with a C-bet and figure out whether or not to call. If they hit top pair, they are worried about a flush draw. If they have a flush draw, they are worried about not making it. Sometimes they have nothing (usually if they have gotten away with this move too many times before) and just want to take down a pot during mid blinds.

And these guys always have me covered this time in the tournament, since I hardly play during low blinds. They have either doubled-up or gotten out by this time, so they can really push around the shorter stacks.

This second scenario is harder to deal with. While I often am ahead of my opponent, there is a chance I'm not. Sometimes they have an over-pair, or even 2-pair. Is it worth risking my tournament life for? Do I just wait for a better spot?

As I've said I've called these guys down b4 and almost always been ahead. I'm just wondering whether or not it's the right play.
 
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TetraMinbet

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If they're overly LAG and doing this every time I usually snap all in with AK, KK, or even JJ depending.

What's really fun is if you suspect some kind of collusion/squeeze scenario.

Then when your quality hand beats theirs you bust 'em out or cripple them.

You can only run over dry one for so long before someone makes a stand.

If someone is overdoing this strategy it is very exploitable IMHO.
 
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TetraMinbet

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Just wanted to add

Some of my major leaks(besides absolutely sucking at cash games)are being too tight, being too passive and letting people run over me.

Hopefully I'll have them plugged soon.

Flush/straight/paired boards make me way too nervous unless short handed or HU.
Maybe that's a good thing. Keeps me out of trouble.:p
 
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TetraMinbet

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Also trying to keep from getting anted to death.

Steal a blind or to just to top it off before situation is critical.
 
magicius

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Well tbh by this what you said you look like complete nit to.me.... You play too tight... You must win coin flip or 2 in sng.... And that lags that you say they can shove any pair,thats normal... With that hand you mentioned with AK,i would shove it there with no thinking...

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teh_colonel_saigon

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Well tbh by this what you said you look like complete nit to.me.... You play too tight... You must win coin flip or 2 in sng.... And that lags that you say they can shove any pair,thats normal... With that hand you mentioned with AK,i would shove it there with no thinking...

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Oh man... I thought you avoided coin flips at all costs in a sng... or is it that the blind/raise dead money covers up the difference? Would it matter if i called with AKo or suited?

I'm not sure, I don't have SNG wizard (using a HUD trial until I get a new computer) so I can't run simulations or $EV analysis on hands.

Is it different in the micros? There have been a few times when I've gotten blinded out for refusing to call all-ins pre-flop.

thanks for the help thus far :cool:
 
Poker Orifice

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1. You raise 3x in late position, and a LAG, who has been seen to gamble before, shoves/raises half his stack over you from the blinds.

Sometimes I'm looking down at AKo, and I get so pissed, esp since I folded the past 25 hands. Often these players are shoving with any pocket pair. I imagine they would do it with AK as well.

I'd imagine they're doing it with alot wider than that (would have to see the particular HH's to be certain).
(fwiw I doubt I'm ever folding AK hu vs. a 3bet shove in a SNG, unless there's some weird ICM spot).


In the second hand scernario you described, where spewy villain is donk-shoving from blinds while you're holding TPGK > something like KJ on a JXXss board. How often do you think a player like that would actually lead out (or donkshove) with a really strong hand? (or even a strong draw?). If they held pr & FD or NFD or FD & gutter, etc., wouldn't they more likely be CRAI over a cbet? I think typically a play like what you're describing of villain is much likely something like weaker FD or maybe OESD, or MPTK.

Hang in there OP. Sounds like you're doing the right stuff.... ie. reading SNG books, studying the game, etc. It'll all become much more intuitive over time.

gl gl
 
magicius

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Oh man... I thought you avoided coin flips at all costs in a sng... or is it that the blind/raise dead money covers up the difference? Would it matter if i called with AKo or suited?

I'm not sure, I don't have SNG wizard (using a HUD trial until I get a new computer) so I can't run simulations or $EV analysis on hands.

Is it different in the micros? There have been a few times when I've gotten blinded out for refusing to call all-ins pre-flop.

thanks for the help thus far :cool:
well u can simply wait for nuts every time... do you play regular speed?turbo? hyper? i would shove QQ+ and AK... as blinds press you you must widen shove range.... i mean u have like 8bb and 9T? what you do? shove...

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teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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well u can simply wait for nuts every time... do you play regular speed?turbo? hyper? i would shove QQ+ and AK... as blinds press you you must widen shove range.... i mean u have like 8bb and 9T? what you do? shove...

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk

So, yea I'm only playing Regular 9 man $1.10 SNGs...
I play on Carbon, and for those of you who don't know you start with t1,500, blinds start at 15/30, and (not that important to this discussion but useful info nonetheless) SNGs are anonymous, meaning you can't look for a particularly soft table/table select at all.

And these scenarios from my first post are only referring to Low to Mid-blind play. With high blinds/shorter stacks you can't afford to fold TPGK or AK pre, I understand that.

And my last post, sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean blinded-out per-say, rather I can get in a spot in mid blinds where I lose 500 in pfrs and blinds combined, leaving me with t1000 and blinds are 40/80 going up... I get in this spot and start thinking about the hand I folded to a 3-bet shove during the 20th hand of the game or something...

In my most recent game I got shoved over my normal 3x raise by 77, I called with AKo during low blinds. It is -$EV here in most cases, eh? I mean at best, I'd have to call 47BB to win 53BB, and with AKo its def. not worth it.

Thanks for all the help so far, esp. Magicius (you've helped me on other threads too!) and Poker Orifice for the words of encouragement. I'm sorry if I'm being a little thick, I can be a bit Nitty and weak-tight in cases, I'm working on getting better in that regard too.
 
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WiZZiM

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Snap calling both of those examples

don't take moshmans book to the extremes, we still have to take risks, just calculated risks.

AK preflop is well ahead of his range, unless it's a bad bubble dynamic, we can call as we can be dominting a huge part of his range (AJ KQ etc)

the second example, we're well, well ahead of anyones range with a pair and a flush draw, get it in and try to contain your excitement.
 
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WiZZiM

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it's not about the 77 hand, it's about his whole range. So what is his whole range for shoving over you with? if it includes a heap of AT, AJ AQ type hands, then calling is great.
 
or3o1990

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I play alot of 9 player sitngo's on bovada and i get this type of LAG play all of the time. I started to see how light people were shoving and opened up my calling range a little bit too much. I was getting winning odds most of the time, sometimes great odds like 70/30. Call it variance if you want (i usually call it bullshit) but even though i thought I was getting my money in good i found myself loosing to too many suck outs and favorable coin flips for my liking. You obviously have better odds being the shover rather than the caller so I tightened it back up. I'll open it up though if I know their range has been a little wide and i have them covered.
 
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