When to flip?

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groggy44

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After the bubble has burst and you are in the money, what is maximum BBs should I be willing to flip with for my tourney life?
5/10/15/20/25?
I have noticed lately I have been busting out on these.
I am really going to start avoiding these.
I think I will be much better off and run deeper to try and pick on weaker aces.
Although, I won more than my share of flips today.
Am I just being a nit?
 
dgiharris

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Imo, you want to avoid "flipping" with hands like 22-77 because there is a decent chance you can be crushed by an overpair. Or basically, you will be in a situation where at "best" you are flipping and at worst you are crushed.

WHen someone shoves you need to look at their position. Late position shoves will be with a wider range of hands, typically, Ax, Kx, 22+

Early position shoves are usually going to be with AT+, KQ, 88+

also depends on average stack size. When M < 15 you can expect a helluva lot more shoving than when M > 20.

Lastly, you want to call shoves when you are fairly confident that your range is ahead of theirs. So its not so much that you are "flipping" but rather that you are ahead of their range.

So if M < 15 and you have AJs or 88 in the SB and an aggro V shoves from the CO and action folds to you, this is a snap call. Its not a "flip" but rather your hand is ahead of V's range.

that is the mindset you need to have in regards to these spots. With the dead money, blinds, and antes in the pot, you are almost always going to be correct in calling in these spots with KJ+, AT+, 88+
 
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When you're ITM and have a tough table to play against, you should be happy to take a flip with a shorter stack in hopes of becoming a big stack and hitting FT. For example, say you have 13bb and folds to SB, who you have seen has been playing aggro lately. He shoves, and has you covered by a few blinds. In this spot you have a very wide calling range since you know he's shoving lots of broadways and small pairs in this spot. Here I would call with any pair/any ace/KJ+, since you can figure to be ahead of his range over half the time. This is one of the better spots you'll find since if you have a hand in this range you can figure to be ahead most of the time in the flip. If you're gonna win a tourney, you gotta rungood, and what better way to get chips then double up in a flip, especially at a tough table. Hope this helps
 
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groggy44

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well it seems that I keep getting into these tough spots.
I've got 20-25 bb or so and I have AK AQ KQ and some wacko shoves. I'm usually dead on with my read. mid pp. Or if get 3bet while I'm holding 77 or 88.
I am doing decent in these $5 and $10 tourneys though. Just want to make it to the top 3 instead of 7th 8th for slightly over double buy in return
 
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Henreiman

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well it seems that I keep getting into these tough spots.
I've got 20-25 bb or so and I have AK AQ KQ and some wacko shoves. I'm usually dead on with my read. mid pp. Or if get 3bet while I'm holding 77 or 88.
I am doing decent in these $5 and $10 tourneys though. Just want to make it to the top 3 instead of 7th 8th for slightly over double buy in return

The last sentence is the answer to your question. How can we move from min-cashes to top finishes (where the real money is at)? Answer: get more chips. Be happy with flips in late game with 20 BBs, you're generally not nearly deep enough to outplay good opponents post-flop. If each payout level is significantly more, you can consider folding for ICM considerations.
 
RegHC23

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Im not no pro or anything, but I think it really depends upon the situation and who is at your table. I think really taking the focus to read your opponents at the table and making sure when it is time to make your opponents make hard decisions. I always say put the pressure on someone else and not your self
 
doncaster

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I play twice a week at free poker at the local hotel.I play tight,I play aggressive,I play loose...it doesn't help.Every player calls when I raise regardless if I have AA or 22 or 7d8d .I always lose.WHY??Why are they soo lucky.
I even slow played AA on the button once.A player UTG had JJ and also just limped in hoping I would raise .The BB checked.The flop was 10 7 4...Yes the BB had 10 7 and went allin. JJ called,I reraised with my AA and...both UTG and I were knocked out!!
I know its free poker but I still try to play my best.
 
RegHC23

RegHC23

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When you are playing at free poker so you have to understand when you go in that people are going to call the craziest hands. It is a good lesson though to kind of get reads on people who are bad and exploit them when you have the chance. Now I cant agree with you on limping with AA. Its just not profitable and when the flop comes you only have aces. It may be the best hand at that moment, but any hand can be cracked.
 
Arjonius

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The original question is flawed in that it specifies you're already in the money. It's a situational decision, and being in the money is only one aspect of the situation. There are others such as relative chip stacks, the other players and their styles, whether you're the aggressor or the one looking at calling, the tournament structure and where you are at the time, the payout structure, etc., etc.
 
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groggy44

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The original question is flawed in that it specifies you're already in the money. It's a situational decision, and being in the money is only one aspect of the situation. There are others such as relative chip stacks, the other players and their styles, whether you're the aggressor or the one looking at calling, the tournament structure and where you are at the time, the payout structure, etc., etc.



These are $5 and $10 tournaments. It gets close to the bubble or ft bubble. Always running into some wacko that open ships 2-3 times an orbit. I'm not really happy about flipping. I know they have nothing but how many times do I stack off with AQ to atc. It's just frustrating. Earlier today, I was in $10 tourney and in ep. QQ facing a reraise, so I 3bet to 13x and the button ships it. I've got around 12k and he's just over 6k. Looking at his stats and my notes from other tourneys, I call. He's never got AA or KK here. Fish rolls over KJo. Don't need to tell ya what came on the river. Blinds were 60/120 and this fish is shipping with KJo. He wasn't making move since I hadn't been entering too many pots. Should I have just folded QQ. I actually thought he was on middle pair. I knew it wasn't AA,KK,or AK.
I'm trying to get more into spots that have more +ev I guess
 
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tohos

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These are $5 and $10 tournaments. It gets close to the bubble or ft bubble. Always running into some wacko that open ships 2-3 times an orbit. I'm not really happy about flipping. I know they have nothing but how many times do I stack off with AQ to atc. It's just frustrating. Earlier today, I was in $10 tourney and in ep. QQ facing a reraise, so I 3bet to 13x and the button ships it. I've got around 12k and he's just over 6k. Looking at his stats and my notes from other tourneys, I call. He's never got AA or KK here. Fish rolls over KJo. Don't need to tell ya what came on the river. Blinds were 60/120 and this fish is shipping with KJo. He wasn't making move since I hadn't been entering too many pots. Should I have just folded QQ. I actually thought he was on middle pair. I knew it wasn't AA,KK,or AK.
I'm trying to get more into spots that have more +ev I guess

Don't fold QQ with the read you have on villain. Bad beats happen. Flips are inevitable part of poker. Noone can win a MTT without at least a little bit of run good. Don't be discouraged if you're getting beat on FLIPS in the money and not because you made some big mistakes. Just adjust your shove/call range if you find you are behind more often than you are ahead
 
Poker Orifice

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These are $5 and $10 tournaments. It gets close to the bubble or ft bubble. Always running into some wacko that open ships 2-3 times an orbit. I'm not really happy about flipping. I know they have nothing but how many times do I stack off with AQ to atc. It's just frustrating.
Sounds like their strategy is working....
Earlier today, I was in $10 tourney and in ep. QQ facing a reraise, so I 3bet to 13x and the button ships it. I've got around 12k and he's just over 6k. Looking at his stats and my notes from other tourneys, I call. He's never got AA or KK here. Fish rolls over KJo. Don't need to tell ya what came on the river.
You're right! You don't need to say what came on the river (or turn) because it doesn't matter. Some spazztard ships 50bb's in a spot he figures is good? (or does he even 'figure' ???) and you snap him off. 'nh'
Blinds were 60/120 and this fish is shipping with KJo. He wasn't making move since I hadn't been entering too many pots. Should I have just folded QQ. I actually thought he was on middle pair. I knew it wasn't AA,KK,or AK.
How do you figure he's on middle pair? A huge 4-bet overshove in a spot like that reeks of AK imo (not that it makes a difference because I doubt I'd ever fold there but I would likely weight his range more towards AK ... but then again I wasn't on the table so what do I know).

Tournaments can be frustrating. Try to play each spot optimally & let go of the results.
 
f0xxaicle0patra93

f0xxaicle0patra93

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I don't usually want to flip unless i'm flipping over a pair or decent hand on the blinds & in a headsup situation.
I would rather shove something like Q2s on the cutoff with a few BBs than call for a flip.
 
Arjonius

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He wasn't making move since I hadn't been entering too many pots. Should I have just folded QQ. I actually thought he was on middle pair. I knew it wasn't AA,KK,or AK.
I'm trying to get more into spots that have more +ev I guess

Upon what do you base your assumption he wasn't making a move? So what if you weren't playing many hands. For that to matter, (a) he has to be aware of it, and (b) he has to play accordingly by tightening up compared to his normal game. Were there good reasons to believe both these factors were in the mix.

You got it in as a heavy favorite. Where's the problem?
 
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