When to call short stack's all-in?

vegasjj

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Here is an actual event (numbers are apx. close)

BB 200,
Short 1 had 4,000 chips
Short 2 has 4,000 chips
Big stack has 12,000 chips

Betting goes in this order
S1 - 200; has AK
S2 - 600; has AT
Big - 600; has Q8 off
S1- all-in;
S2 all-in;
Big calls
(flop QQx .. you know the rest)

It raised for me the question:
At apx what point should a BIG STACK call the short guys - ESPECIALLY when there are 2 of them? In this case he risked 30% of his stack - and he would have been left with a comfortable playable stack had he lost - but by risking 4000 he had the opportunity to win 8000 - for a real big lead.
I think it was a crazy play on his part - he had 2 opponents - twice the chance to lose, way too much to risk (30%) on any 2 cards.

BUT - I wonder if there is a magic number - guideline - when risking chips on any 2 cards in a tourney (apx middle stages of tourney - itm is not too close yet) would make sense.
 
Lucothefish

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Here is an actual event (numbers are apx. close)

BB 200,
Short 1 had 4,000 chips
Short 2 has 4,000 chips
Big stack has 12,000 chips

Betting goes in this order
S1 - 200; has AK
S2 - 600; has AT
Big - 600; has Q8 off
S1- all-in;
S2 all-in;
Big calls
(flop QQx .. you know the rest)

It raised for me the question:
At apx what point should a BIG STACK call the short guys - ESPECIALLY when there are 2 of them? In this case he risked 30% of his stack - and he would have been left with a comfortable playable stack had he lost - but by risking 4000 he had the opportunity to win 8000 - for a real big lead.
I think it was a crazy play on his part - he had 2 opponents - twice the chance to lose, way too much to risk (30%) on any 2 cards.

BUT - I wonder if there is a magic number - guideline - when risking chips on any 2 cards in a tourney (apx middle stages of tourney - itm is not too close yet) would make sense.

Just use pot odds vs equity when your tourney life isn't on the line.

In your particular example both 'short' stacks had 20bb each and were nowhere near desperate, but actually because of the way the betting fell he was calling 3,400 to win 12,000 plus any blinds and antes, so he only needed 29% equity to make the call. Give the two short stacks some ranges in pokerstove and see how wide they need to be for the big stack's call to be correct.
 
Debi

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Can't really answer that question without having some idea of how the short stacks have been playing - but that is definitely not an insta-call by the big stack. Against 1 player that he knows has a wide range maybe - but not against 2 players with such a marginal hand. 4k chips is a third of his stack and he is not likely to be ahead of both of them. Even if he was it's just not a good hand you can expect to hold up against 2 players.

I would have to have specific information that would make me want to make that call - honestly can't even think of what that would be.
 
D

detourglr

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actually on the 20bb.. Was at a WPT Boot Camp and was told that 20x is the new short stack where you are pushing when you go in.
even with a 10Xbb not only I am not calling with Q8.. but I am not Calling with the A-10.. Small blind fold here has some hands to go before folding... however if you go by the new 20x is the short stack then yeah I am pushing.
now this is another strategy that big stacks like to play... not sure if it is strategy but a folk lure that the big stack at the table should always call with anything with people he can cover just for the chance to knock them out of the tournament. I call this a folk lure becuase myself I think it increase chances the the short stacks at the become not short stacks at the table. I been in more than one tournament where I in the middle of the road of stack sizes at the table before the buddle and some fool does this and keeps doing this. and then I become the short stack at the table.
 
Lucothefish

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Can't really answer that question without having some idea of how the short stacks have been playing - but that is definitely not an insta-call by the big stack. Against 1 player that he knows has a wide range maybe - but not against 2 players with such a marginal hand. 4k chips is a third of his stack and he is not likely to be ahead of both of them. Even if he was it's just not a good hand you can expect to hold up against 2 players.

I would have to have specific information that would make me want to make that call - honestly can't even think of what that would be.

Your intuition is correct. I was a little naughty when I said BB 'only needed 29% equity...' but pokerstove will reveal all :)

I don't have access to stove right now, hence the homework for vegasjj. However, it's possible to do this as a simplified logic exercise without pokerstove.

It's clear that in a 3 way all in with three identical ranges your equity should be 33.33%. As the hero always has a specific hand, not a range, his hand needs to be smack in the middle of the villain's ranges to have that same 33% equity. If his hand is above average for that range, he will have more than 33% equity. If it's below average, he will have less.

In this hand with Q8o (which isn't even in the top 1/3 of hands), both short stacks would need to be shoving huge (over 50%) for BB to achieve the 29% equity required for a call. If just one of these players has the slightest clue how to play poker, BB must fold. You could argue that Q8o isn't even in the bottom of these two ranges, let alone the middle.

It's not even close. His first call was lolbad, but his second call was craptacular.
 
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NeverEnough

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A pretty loose play the the big stack IMO. I'm not calling one of those Ai with Q8o forget about two.
 
Lucothefish

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Well this specific hand history aside...

BUT - I wonder if there is a magic number - guideline - when risking chips on any 2 cards in a tourney (apx middle stages of tourney - itm is not too close yet) would make sense.

The answer to this is yes, there is a magic number.

If you're last to act and getting 3:1 pot odds or better facing a shove, you should call with any two cards.
 
duggs

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Well this specific hand history aside...



The answer to this is yes, there is a magic number.

If you're last to act and getting 3:1 pot odds or better facing a shove, you should call with any two cards.

to be +cEV, not to be +tEV or +$EV
 
Lucothefish

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to be +cEV, not to be +tEV or +$EV

Of course you're right, +cEV is the only one that will always apply no matter where and when you apply the 3:1 rule... was trying to keep it simple but I guess I do need to expand.

For this rule, calling and losing shouldn't affect the playability of your stack going forward (i.e. you need a big enough stack to take the hit because you will lose a good % of the time).
 
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