what's the optimal betsize here ?

10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
So, first apologies because I'm such a donk, I don't even know how to convert a hand from my PT3 dbase.
Here's the situation and I'm pretty sure I made a huge mistake here:

$3,00 / $0,30 USD MTT on stars, 2557 players.
We are down to 18 players , blinds 8000/16000 antes 2000.

Stacks at my table (after paying antes and blinds):
Hero (UTG) 596 K
UTG+1 675 K
MP1 196 K
MP2 671 K
MP3 322 K
CO 192 K
BTN 290 K
SB 557 K
BB 517 K

UTG+1 (good player) and BB are kinda LAG, calling rather much and taking pots post-flop , esp UTG is very agro when smelling weakness and a few hands before he reraised my donk-flop-bet after which I had to let the hand go.
The other players are tighter, at this moment only calling/3-betting with good hands.

So with the blinds and antes in the pot, the potsize is 42 K and I wake up UTG with AsAd.

Ofcourse I want value so I'm not shoving AI.
What do you think is the optimal bet size to open this pot ?
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
Chips
0
10058765 said:
So, first apologies because I'm such a donk, I don't even know how to convert a hand from my PT3 dbase.
Here's the situation and I'm pretty sure I made a huge mistake here:

$3,00 / $0,30 USD MTT on stars, 2557 players.
We are down to 18 players , blinds 8000/16000 antes 2000.

Stacks at my table (after paying antes and blinds):
Hero (UTG) 596 K
UTG+1 675 K
MP1 196 K
MP2 671 K
MP3 322 K
CO 192 K
BTN 290 K
SB 557 K
BB 517 K

UTG+1 (good player) and BB are kinda LAG, calling rather much and taking pots post-flop , esp UTG is very agro when smelling weakness and a few hands before he reraised my donk-flop-bet after which I had to let the hand go.
The other players are tighter, at this moment only calling/3-betting with good hands.

So with the blinds and antes in the pot, the potsize is 42 K and I wake up UTG with AsAd.

Ofcourse I want value so I'm not shoving AI.
What do you think is the optimal bet size to open this pot ?
Click to expand...
A min-raise here would be a little transparent, especially if you have been making standard bets throughout the tourney.
These players didn't make it this far by not paying attention to their opponents play, so with this in mind, make a bet that they would expect if you were to hold a hand that is not too strong.
Use your image against them.

As for the bet size, I would open up from UTG with AA by betting 3xBB, but if your opponents have a tendency to raise an EP limp, then by all means, limp in and hope for a re-raise.
 
10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
Well, my image was TAG and it was a long time since I played a hand from UTG.
Whenever I raised though, it was 2-2,2 X.
But, that's part of my problem.
Should I raise more when antes are in play ?
 
Last edited:
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
nahh, small ball ftw! there's some schools of thought that you should open for more UTG since your range should be a lot stronger.

I think a 3x open is fine here, especially with a good LAG with direct position on you, don't want to play a big pot OOP against a good player who'll put you to lots of decisions postflop, with what will most likely just be TP.

don't think raise sizes have much to do with antes though, someone correct me if I'm wrong?
 
JusSumguy

JusSumguy

Chipmonger
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Total posts
4,271
Awards
2
Chips
0
UTG I'm prolly gonna limp for a few reasons.

The better players are gonna put me on a small PP... I wanna see how the table runs... If you have a good image, then a big bet UTG almost always indicates AA/KK

If a raise comes, then I'm gonna change gears and raise big (at least pot) to isolate the raiser. AA is not as strong as it appears in a multi way pot. When I get fancy with it, I usually cry.

However... If I have an uber agro player at the table, and he has taken control of the hand, I would prolly walk the dog.


:icon_salu
 
flatcaller

flatcaller

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Total posts
178
Chips
0
Always Raise the same amount if you are the first to enter a pot. Mixing up you bet raises will be a tell, and it is a tell that stands out. IF you 3x from button 3x from utg.

10058765 said:
Well, my image was TAG and it was a long time since I played a hand from UTG.
Whenever I raised though, it was 2-2,2 X.
But, that's part of my problem.
Should I raise more when antes are in play ?
Click to expand...

If you play a hand utg you still can have TAG image. It is just more pradicatble that you are playing premium, thats why an occasional middle suited connector raise from utg works well to trick you opponents.

raising pends on your style, if you are not comfortable playing hands post flop raise more. I play lots of hands and expect callers so i raise about 2.5x when antes are out. I invest small amounts of money into what i want to be big pots when i make a hand or find a good spot to steal etc.

End Note: first to enter pot from any position raise the same amount every time. Play lots of hand 2.5x raise play tighter 3x raise.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
this late 2.2 or 2 is fine, shouldnt be changing your bet size with strong/weak hands at all. if 3bet depending on the the player you can 4bet a tight player or flat a lag and let them fire on the flop. from experience people arent good at 3bet/folding at micros
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
JusSumguy said:
UTG I'm prolly gonna limp for a few reasons.

The better players are gonna put me on a small PP... I wanna see how the table runs... If you have a good image, then a big bet UTG almost always indicates AA/KK

If a raise comes, then I'm gonna change gears and raise big (at least pot) to isolate the raiser. AA is not as strong as it appears in a multi way pot. When I get fancy with it, I usually cry.

However... If I have an uber agro player at the table, and he has taken control of the hand, I would prolly walk the dog.


:icon_salu
Click to expand...

dont limp, limping UTG is super suss and if people are ranging you that tight then you should just open your range more, not limp and lose value. L/RR is an extremely suss line to take and often an action killer.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
10058765 said:
Well, my image was TAG and it was a long time since I played a hand from UTG.
Whenever I raised though, it was 2-2,2 X.
But, that's part of my problem.
Should I raise more when antes are in play ?
Click to expand...

raise less when antes are in play, as it makes your steals more profitable/ gives you more room to move postflop.
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
I'd say 2.5x big blind is best, although it would depend on table dynamics. 2.5x ads in the extra little value without causing anyone to realise your bet size has altered.
 
10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
Ok, thanks for the replies.
I actually raised to 34K , which in hindsight I think is not completely wrong, but could be slightly bigger.
Only UTG+1 calls.

Flop comes KsJs10d.

What should be my action, first to act and a pot of 110K ?
 
complex1

complex1

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Total posts
34
Awards
1
Chips
1
i would min raise to 32k-35k and hope for a reraise or an AI. now if you been playing alot of hands then i might even make it more but like you said you want to get some value out of the hand.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
slightly over half pot or whatever you have been cbetting till now, if he likes to try take pots away post flop this will be a spot for him to come over the top. so betting over/under your standard cbet will set off alarm bells.
 
L

LaserCats

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
Total posts
162
Chips
0
What we are talking about here is your ability to read the flop and other players bets/hands. If you are uncomfortable doing that you will fold to an aggressive player 75% of the time by the river becuase 1 pair "aint all theat". If you are To be more comforatble - set a limit for the number of chips you want to risk on AA and bet it/call it downh if they play with you. ...Typically you will beat a paired turn or flop or beat pocket pairs with AA. ...playing post flop: If you hit a set ur golden - if you get a flush draw - ur golden to call down raise away. Other wise small mid bet it down and see what the poker gods have in store for you. Heads up or 3 way losing 25% fo your stack aint a crime - just bad luck.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
LaserCats said:
What we are talking about here is your ability to read the flop and other players bets/hands. If you are uncomfortable doing that you will fold to an aggressive player 75% of the time by the river becuase 1 pair "aint all theat". If you are To be more comforatble - set a limit for the number of chips you want to risk on AA and bet it/call it downh if they play with you. ...Typically you will beat a paired turn or flop or beat pocket pairs with AA. ...playing post flop: If you hit a set ur golden - if you get a flush draw - ur golden to call down raise away. Other wise small mid bet it down and see what the poker gods have in store for you. Heads up or 3 way losing 25% fo your stack aint a crime - just bad luck.
Click to expand...

dont do this, we dont want to pot control against laggy opponents
 
10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
Hmmm, ok, I actually did bet 76K, which I think was I think a bit to much, but anyway, he calls and the Turn comes 9d, which makes the board really scary.
Here I'm really thinking about his range, because what could he have with which he calls the flop-bet.
Lower pairs ? Not likely with all these overcards.
QQ+ or AK I'm almost 100 % sure he would have 3-bet preflop.
So maybe I'm narrowing his range to much, but what comes to my mind is pocket 10 or jacks and all kind of combos with a queen.
AQ, KQ maybe even QJ.

So, I still just have a pocket-pair and the pot is now 262 K with a board of
9d 10d Js Ks.
What should I do ?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
10058765 said:
Hmmm, ok, I actually did bet 76K, which I think was I think a bit to much, but anyway, he calls and the Turn comes 9d, which makes the board really scary.
Here I'm really thinking about his range, because what could he have with which he calls the flop-bet.
Lower pairs ? Not likely with all these overcards.
QQ+ or AK I'm almost 100 % sure he would have 3-bet preflop.
So maybe I'm narrowing his range to much, but what comes to my mind is pocket 10 or jacks and all kind of combos with a queen.
AQ, KQ maybe even QJ.

So, I still just have a pocket-pair and the pot is now 262 K with a board of
9d 10d Js Ks.
What should I do ?
Click to expand...

This is a 3 dollar tourney, definitely narrowing his range waaay to much,
 
10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
This is a 3 dollar tourney, definitely narrowing his range waaay to much,

Maybe.
I saw loads of players who were in love with lower pairs and busted because of that.
This player however , was good IMO and I did not see him do any stupid or fancy play.
To be honest, I got scared when he called my flop-bet and saw the 9 on the turn.
 
jaxpaboo

jaxpaboo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Total posts
140
Chips
0
3x preflop. Maybe the "4x please fold" preflop.

Flop is fine... I think anywhere from 50% to pot is right.

That is a scary turn card, but may be equally scary to opponent as well.

I think a 75% turn bet is in order if you want to continue.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
So 596 behind and 262 in pot,
you said that he likes to attack weakness so you could bet like 80 and check river, letting him spazz shove which you snap.
Or you can check/shove turn.

Readless im just betting 110 and shoving river tho

If he is aggressive and competent he will probably be shoving over alot of flops that he draws on, likey we will get value from alot top pair\mid pair hands that he is playing too passively
 
10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
Wouldn't it be wise from here to try to get to a cheap showdown ?
I mean a 75 % turnbet would pretty much commit me, don't you think ?

Nb I appreciate the replies and opinions, because I want to learn from this specific situation.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
10058765 said:
Wouldn't it be wise from here to try to get to a cheap showdown ?
I mean a 75 % turnbet would pretty much commit me, don't you think ?

Nb I appreciate the replies and opinions, because I want to learn from this specific situation.
Click to expand...

In my opinion these players at these stakes play aggressively with with the top of their range and passively with the rest so you should go for max value.
 
10058765

10058765

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Total posts
8,607
Awards
8
Chips
127
Hmmm, I now realize my mindset was not good.
I think now I should have fired another barrel and by doing that I would have had way more information about where I stood.
Besides, I was focused on reaching the FT instead of making first place(wrong).
Slowing down with AA with 18 players left...a sin, but I had a previous tournament in my mind, in which at a crucial moment my AA were cracked while I was running deep.
Like I said, I got scared because of the board and check/folded his turnbet (hero-fold?).
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
10058765 said:
Hmmm, ok, I actually did bet 76K, which I think was I think a bit to much, but anyway, he calls and the Turn comes 9d, which makes the board really scary.
Here I'm really thinking about his range, because what could he have with which he calls the flop-bet.
Lower pairs ? Not likely with all these overcards.
QQ+ or AK I'm almost 100 % sure he would have 3-bet preflop.
So maybe I'm narrowing his range to much, but what comes to my mind is pocket 10 or jacks and all kind of combos with a queen.
AQ, KQ maybe even QJ.

So, I still just have a pocket-pair and the pot is now 262 K with a board of
9d 10d Js Ks.
What should I do ?
Click to expand...

Reckon he raises sets/two pair hands on the flop for value and to protect his hand against your range since it does include some queens in it.

His opinion of your range also matters as well as the actual cards you have.

I hate checking in this spot, maybe I'm just too aggressive in tournaments but I bet again.. if he has a queen he'll let you know.

If you half pot it you may be able to get a cheap river if he just flats. But IMO betting a bit under 3/4 pot on the flop on a wet board kinda put you in this spot.. and the sudden smaller bet after the initial flop bet might be seen as weakness by the LAG if he's decent like you say he is.

Sorry I didn't really help much, kinda a shit spot tbh..
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
10058765 said:
Hmmm, I now realize my mindset was not good.
I think now I should have fired another barrel and by doing that I would have had way more information about where I stood.
Besides, I was focused on reaching the FT instead of making first place(wrong).
Slowing down with AA with 18 players left...a sin, but I had a previous tournament in my mind, in which at a crucial moment my AA were cracked while I was running deep.
Like I said, I got scared because of the board and check/folded his turnbet (hero-fold?).
Click to expand...

Bad line, you say yourself he likes to attack pots when checked to, no way he is thinking about your range at, likely has alot of complete air in his range. Terrible fold in my opinion. Check/shove would even be a better line,

Remember that at this buy in calling usually caps hand strength, especially with a usually agg opponent, checking e turn is bad because that flop gets alot of floats. You have seriously under repped your hand as you took a single stab at pot and gave up, he will be betting pretty much 100% of hands he called the flop with.
 
Top