What can you do?

I’m in a very low buy-in tourney filled with weak and inexperiencedplayers. Lots of open limping, limpcalling, and constantly checking top-pair. About 9-10 levels in the following hand takes place:

BB 2K, SB 1K

I’m in cutoff + 1 with 10s 10c and 23K in chips. Normally I would be shoving this stack hereexcept that I am the big stack at the table; actually the huge stack at thetable with the next highest stack around 13.5K (weak players at a weak table,position and stack sizes are not amongst their thoughts). A very weak player from 2ndposition limps in and I raise to 5.5K. The SB (stack 8.5K) calls and so does the limper. Flop is Jc Js 4c, Check, Check, I shove, theSB calls off his remaining 3K and the limper folds. He flips over K J and beats me with 3Jacks. Ok, so grading myself I would saythat I lost that hand because I didn’t shove my 23 BB stack pre-flop and letmyself get complacent because of the relative size of my stack. Had I shoved I likely would have won theblinds plus a limp – or the same result would have occurred.

Right….So I make a comment to this guy about how well heplayed that hand which, subsequently, starts a very familiar poker table backand forth argument. Of course I refuseto argue with a guy that just pulled that K J stunt, but I happened to find QsQh on the very next hand. So I kept theargument going, shoved my remaining 14.5K and said something like “call thiswith K J shithead” – he did, with Qs 5s and flopped the nut flush therebyending my day as I received no help on the turn; he continued talking trash thewhole time as I just got up and left.

I was actually kind of proud of myself though for using hisown emotions against him and it was just a $70 tourney that is absolutely meaningless– nonetheless – I would like to know how to beat him. I usually don’t play in this tourney unless Iget busted in the bigger tournament (that’s how I ended up here today as well)but it seems something stupid like this always takes me out in these low buy-intourney’s not matter how well I played the situation. Did I just lose? Or was there something I could have donebetter to retain my seat?

ssbn743 said:

I’m in a very low buy-in tourney filled with weak and inexperiencedplayers. Lots of open limping, limpcalling, and constantly checking top-pair. About 9-10 levels in the following hand takes place:

BB 2K, SB 1K

I’m in cutoff + 1 with 10s 10c and 23K in chips. Normally I would be shoving this stack hereexcept that I am the big stack at the table; actually the huge stack at thetable with the next highest stack around 13.5K (weak players at a weak table,position and stack sizes are not amongst their thoughts). A very weak player from 2ndposition limps in and I raise to 5.5K. The SB (stack 8.5K) calls and so does the limper. Flop is Jc Js 4c, Check, Check, I shove, theSB calls off his remaining 3K and the limper folds. He flips over K J and beats me with 3Jacks. Ok, so grading myself I would saythat I lost that hand because I didn’t shove my 23 BB stack pre-flop and letmyself get complacent because of the relative size of my stack. Had I shoved I likely would have won theblinds plus a limp – or the same result would have occurred.

Right….So I make a comment to this guy about how well heplayed that hand which, subsequently, starts a very familiar poker table backand forth argument. Of course I refuseto argue with a guy that just pulled that K J stunt, but I happened to find QsQh on the very next hand. So I kept theargument going, shoved my remaining 14.5K and said something like “call thiswith K J shithead” – he did, with Qs 5s and flopped the nut flush therebyending my day as I received no help on the turn; he continued talking trash thewhole time as I just got up and left.

I was actually kind of proud of myself though for using hisown emotions against him and it was just a $70 tourney that is absolutely meaningless– nonetheless – I would like to know how to beat him. I usually don’t play in this tourney unless Iget busted in the bigger tournament (that’s how I ended up here today as well)but it seems something stupid like this always takes me out in these low buy-intourney’s not matter how well I played the situation. Did I just lose? Or was there something I could have donebetter to retain my seat?

Click to expand...

I don't think you made a bad play there, you win there almost 90% of the time. One tip for you though, CO+1 is the button

your first instinct was probably correct...shove preflop with 23K regardless of the fact that you were chip leader and the other stacks were even shorter than you..KJ would have called anyway because to him two face cards looks pretty good so the "why not?" attitude would prevail and you end up losing....unless the site you were on constantly shuffles the deck while the hand is in play, making the result more like he gets a broadway on the river to beat you...either way you lose...and the sad part is that I know your future and it is very bleak....what happens next is that this same sort of thing is going to happen to you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again...you will make comments to your opponents, and they will trash talk you...you will continue to lose to them some way, some how....I have no explanation for it and those that think they do have an explanation are just plain luckier than you, so they don't have the kind of experience in bad luck that you have.....it's a little frustrating, isn't it???

oh, btw, when you say "$70 tournament" you did mean $70 buy-in right??? To some people that would be a big tourney, not a small one....if $70 buy-in is a very low-stakes tourney, then what buy-ins do you usually play in that you consider mid-stakes or large stakes???

Something doesn't sound right in Op, also I never see this type of play in any mtts over 22$ TBH especially in the chat box from active players at tables When around 9-10 level stages.

What site was this on? what mtt number....?

hmmm, I see this type of play all the time these days in any buy-in level up to $162...both live in the casinos and online on Bovada. It's like there's a brand new poker boom out there, I would be enjoying the fruits of it, but my luck has been running like OP's luck,,, except in satellites...I can win seats in larger tourneys all the time in satellites, then am shocked when the play is so weak in the big tourney, but still they manage to find a way to beat me somewhere before the money. It's a lot of fun trying though!

i agree with zingbust. if you trash talk about ur bad runs, your hexxed. take the good with the bad, and youll be fine...and dont chat....

long_bong said:

Something doesn't sound right in Op, also I never see this type of play in any mtts over 22$ TBH especially in the chat box from active players at tables When around 9-10 level stages.

What site was this on? what mtt number....?

Click to expand...

My guess is that this MTT was at a fire hall.

The SB has an M of 2 and goes all the way with KJ and you are calling him a shithead? Did you expect him to fold? There is no way that guy should fold. He should have shoved several hands before that.

Small stacks are very dangerous - remember that.

Yes you should have shoved TT and you would have got the same result.

Yes you should have shoved QQ - just didn't work out.

Encouraging and/or participating in rude behavior at the table doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

zingbust said:

hmmm, I see this type of play all the time these days in any buy-in level up to $162...both live in the casinos and online on Bovada. It's like there's a brand new poker boom out there, I would be enjoying the fruits of it, but my luck has been running like OP's luck,,, except in satellites...I can win seats in larger tourneys all the time in satellites, then am shocked when the play is so weak in the big tourney, but still they manage to find a way to beat me somewhere before the money. It's a lot of fun trying though!

Click to expand...

Ahh ok maybe I should turn on the player chat once in awhile for some entertainment, I turn it off for rail birds, as usually that is the only chat you see. And it gets annouying.

You still play frequently on bovada?

Are they ever going to bring back Screennames?

I would play there if this was the case, great structured tourneys there and weak fields, But hate the unknown factor.

zingbust said:

oh, btw, when you say "$70 tournament" you did mean $70 buy-in right??? To some people that would be a big tourney, not a small one....if $70 buy-in is a very low-stakes tourney, then what buy-ins do you usually play in that you consider mid-stakes or large stakes???

Click to expand...

long_bong said:

Something doesn't sound right in Op, also I never see this type of play in any mtts over 22$ TBH especially in the chat box from active players at tables When around 9-10 level stages.

What site was this on? what mtt number....?

Click to expand...

How can you guys possibly think this is an online tournament???? (hints > carries on the argument; all stacks are <7bb's except for HERO's which is 11bb)Try reading OP over again. And yah.. $70 is about as cheap as you get.

TT.. just shove. There's no sense in raising over a limper when they're all sitting on <6bb's. No doubt result will be the same (KJ likely calling).. but who cares.

MediaBLITZ said:

Small stacks are very dangerous - remember that.
.

Click to expand...

He's short himself (11bb).. they're all short! How can the other stacks be considered 'dangerous' when there's no play on the entire table aside from allin? (for all of them).

Poker Orifice said:

He's short himself (11bb).. they're all short! How can the other stacks be considered 'dangerous' when there's no play on the entire table aside from allin? (for all of them).

Click to expand...

He's also the chip leader - my main point was he shouldn't be surprised when shorter stacks get it all in with nothing but paint, ESPECIALLY in the blinds with a 4 BB stack. He referred to it as "that KJ stunt".

now for a possible derail...

It just occurred to me a couple weeks ago that I have never come across any writing or advice on playing the final stages of a donkament when absolutely everyone is in or bordering on the red zone. Not that I am looking for advice, I think I do pretty well in these situations and actually look forward to them.

Anyway I for sure have a whole different gear for these times and it is doesn't really include the standard shove at 10 BB at earliest opportunity.

It just happened to dawn on me I had never really come across this before - sure there is all kinds of stuff on what YOU should do as your stack size shrinks - but this is an excellent example - only 11 BB and yet the dominate stack leader. Not entirely unusual with an accelerated blinds structure donkament.

OK first of all never try to correct a fish on their play. You want them to keep playing bad, duh. Anyways, if he is as short as you describe then he might as well open shove with KJ...the limp isn't a great play, but in the end you would've lost either way. Also, you played the hand pretty awfully. Already with 5k at stake (limp + blinds) how are you not shoving 100% of the time? 10s aren't golden, I want them folding QJ if I can get them off of it, and I'm happy to chip up by 25%. This is even more true with you as the big stack and everyone else so short.

MediaBLITZ said:

He's also the chip leader - my main point was he shouldn't be surprised when shorter stacks get it all in with nothing but paint, ESPECIALLY in the blinds with a 4 BB stack. He referred to it as "that KJ stunt"

Click to expand...

First, yes this was a live tourney, the big game here in Colorado is $210/$310 with 30 minute levels and deep stacks on Saturday and Sunday respectively.

Second, it’s not the K J that bothers me; it’s how this guy played it. He called Pre-flop only to check and call all-in – what was his plan if he didn’t hit 3 Jacks? That’s the part that bothers me, not the KJ. So I was referring to the “whole KJ stunt” and yes I mean it just like that!

As for rude behavior, you’re right and I normally just let them go. But when you can get a player that just won a questionable hand off you to call your all-in with a Q 5 (suited of course); isn’t that a good thing – regardless of how it’s done? I just feel like you have to use all the tools in your bag – even the ones that aren’t especially etiquette friendly.

I was proud of how I appeared tilted enough to tilt him into a Q 5 call; and, of course, disappointed that it didn’t work out in my favor.

You should have called the floor manager, no way there should be two Q spades in the deck.

twoturntablez said:

You should have called the floor manager, no way there should be two Q spades in the deck.

Click to expand...

LOL

ssbn743 said:

Second, it’s not the K J that bothers me; it’s how this guy played it. He called Pre-flop only to check and call all-in – what was his plan if he didn’t hit 3 Jacks? That’s the part that bothers me, not the KJ. So I was referring to the “whole KJ stunt” and yes I mean it just like that!

Click to expand...

I am confused on which part of his play has you upset? Calling pre-flop (yeah - he should have shoved, you call, which would have been same result)?

Checking his trips on the flop? Well yeah - why not. Yes, he should have shoved there too. But he went to induce someone to take a shot and hoped his trips hold up vs flush draw.

Once again this guy is in the desperation zone so you really shouldn't be surprised to see this kind of play from a guy who would allow his stack to dribble down so low - that's all I'm saying. His pathetic attempt to trap actually worked.

You played the hand well. It's not your fault - say it.

No, I know – the hand plays out here the same in just about every credible scenario. It’s just frustrating to get beat by someone with such an apparent and obvious misunderstanding of the game. I don’t even have the words to describe how weak his play is – but it doesn’t change the result – I still would have lost and I would have never folded. Hence the title of this thread – “What can you do?” Sometimes you just lose I guess.

twoturntablez said:

You should have called the floor manager; no way there should be two Q spades in the deck.

Click to expand...

And you’re right, I must have jacked up my original post – I don’t’ remember the suits of my Queens. He did have the spades though because the flop was As Ks Rag of spades; he flopped the nut flush – Not something you forget easily - **** me!

Pretty standard plays all around.

The kind of positions you wanna be in when playing a live tournament with a few donks.

Definitely shove with 10 10 pre-flop tho. Just personally think raising to 5.5k there is so pointless. It is a possibility that if you just pushed all-in it would've looked very strong for the KJ villain, and he might have mucked. If not then whatever you're making a standard play.

And nice job antagonizing him with QQ turning into him making a bad play. But hey he felt lucky and it came back to bite you. Don't stress it to much

This is just me but... on ths I have that guys face burned into my memory along with notes:

Has no plan for hands.

Plays to get lucky.

No guts - will let stack dwindle well below reasonable shoving range.

I owe him - not one, but two.

Yeah…I like these scenarios though because they are easy to learn from.

I was thinking of shoving before the cards were dealt, then when I saw 10 10 – no brainer right? Then at the last second I thought, “Well I’m the table chip leader – maybe I should just raise.” I don’t know why I thought that – it was idiotic, especially with a table full of donks. They’re open limping and folding 1 and 2 M stacks, I should have just taken advantage, and if called, the same result occurs anyway!

I hate it when I know the right play but don’t make it – and I always have some reason for changing my mind that when looked at from hindsight makes me go WTF!

Does anyone think FOLDING the 1010 is an option? I gotta say, even tho it may sound crazy - when I got the biggest stack in a tournie like this....Ive often FOLDED middle pairs like that with more than 3 players still to act. I did that a few times - one time in particular I folded AJ suited - BB ended up having AQ who pushed all in and won against the SB who raised then called with A9 off suit. (AQ held up and AJ would have lost). I went on to finish 3rd in that tournie. Im not saying muchking 1010 is necessarily the best play - just thinking outside the box - not every semi-strong hand has to be played out....especially when short stacks are behind. Short stacks in a tournament will call any all in with a weak king or ace.

morganc said:

Short stacks in a tournament will call any all in with a weak king or ace.

Click to expand...

This is a problem...why?