What one thing will improve my game?

#1 20th August 2012, 7:58 PM

I know that is a very vague question but I just want to improve step by step.

For instance:

I used to think K9 was a good hand. I read one book and learnt that it wasn't so I stopped playing it. Now if someone beats me with it I am actually quite pleased because I think that player has bad hand selection. The occasions when I do play it, from blinds or desperate shoves it still fails me 8/10.

Fold any 10 in normal game conditions.

Stop shoving when I don't have to.

Only play marginal hands from position - this was the single biggest revelation I made, used to play QK from early, now I only play from button or cut-off.

Now, what can I add to my game?

I don't understand EV.

I don't use a HUD.

I don't understand ICM.

I play micro sit and goes where 3 betting and such doesn't work too well.

Of those three above which will help me most, or is there something else I can add (or remove) to my game?

Thanks

#2 20th August 2012, 8:03 PM

Start here... Sklansky's hand ranking chart. Red is good, blue is bad.

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#3 20th August 2012, 8:06 PM

Hand strength is relative, not static.

You're probably not shoving enough.

SNGs are all about bubble play, so learn ICM.

#4 20th August 2012, 8:17 PM

Definately try and learn ICM.

Single most important things I have ever heard are:
1. Every hand tells a story. Stop and think through that story.
2. If every hand tells a story, make sure you tell a story and stick to it. Even if the story isnt actually what your hand is.
3. If you 2 to 3BB raise with 78s, then you can play it as though it is a good ace on the right flop, or KQ, or a pocket pair, so you can get hands through which are not actually what they are. Hope that makes sense?!?
4. Phil Helmuth once muttered that "you can't go out if you don't put all your chips in". He couldnt be more right. If you want to steal some blinds at 50/100 when you have 3000, why do you need to bet 3000?

#5 20th August 2012, 8:51 PM

ICM it is then.

Looking at Sklansky, is JJ still a top hand? I can't count the amount of times I've lost with it. Would you play it the same as AA?

#6 20th August 2012, 9:32 PM

Originally Posted by Nooneinparticular

4. Phil Helmuth once muttered that "you can't go out if you don't put all your chips in". He couldnt be more right. If you want to steal some blinds at 50/100 when you have 3000, why do you need to bet 3000?

This is awful advice for a SNG player.

#7 20th August 2012, 9:34 PM

JJ imo is definitely not a top hand in fact neither is QQ but that is just a basic chart to give a vague idea. Jacks are one of, if not the, most hated starting hands among many top players. I for one hate them, even more so now as I went out of the Sunday millions with them last week!!

Sklansky is a must read but does contradict himself at times, but I guess that's because his books have been rewritten and revised so many times to try to adapt to the evolution of the game. I also think he puts too much emphasis on understanding EV. As long as you understand how certain situations affect the long term success of a decision you don't need to worry about it all too much to begin with. Start with icm and when you have that down you should already notice an improvement in SnG results.

Also if you're not yet familiar with the 'gap concept' I'd advise giving that a look.

Good luck.

#8 20th August 2012, 9:42 PM

Learn another game besides sngs

#9 20th August 2012, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by Morracey

JJ imo is definitely not a top hand in fact neither is QQ but that is just a basic chart to give a vague idea. Jacks are one of, if not the, most hated starting hands among many top players. I for one hate them, even more so now as I went out of the Sunday millions with them last week!!

Sklansky is a must read but does contradict himself at times, but I guess that's because his books have been rewritten and revised so many times to try to adapt to the evolution of the game. I also think he puts too much emphasis on understanding EV. As long as you understand how certain situations affect the long term success of a decision you don't need to worry about it all too much to begin with. Start with icm and when you have that down you should already notice an improvement in SnG results.

Also if you're not yet familiar with the 'gap concept' I'd advise giving that a look.

Good luck.

This is terrible advice. JJ/QQ are premium hands.

#10 20th August 2012, 10:35 PM

if you can stop making those

WTF plays that almost every player sometimes does,,,

that will plug a big hole

#11 20th August 2012, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Caesura

ICM it is then.

Looking at Sklansky, is JJ still a top hand? I can't count the amount of times I've lost with it. Would you play it the same as AA?

JJ is the devils hand...

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#12 21st August 2012, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by baudib1

Hand strength is relative, not static.

You're probably not shoving enough.

SNGs are all about bubble play, so learn ICM.

This ^

#13 21st August 2012, 1:34 AM

The one thing I would suggest is patience sometimes I will go around 3 to 4 big blinds before I will play a hand and it kills me but It's smarter to lose that blinds and win a good hand then to keep limping in and just losing more and more

#14 21st August 2012, 8:04 AM

Hmm... 'one' thing? I'd say 'table selection' - try to get onto some tables with most of the people responding on this thread & it'll surely increase your winrate.

#15 21st August 2012, 8:22 AM

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Hmm... 'one' thing? I'd say 'table selection' - try to get onto some tables with most of the people responding on this thread & it'll surely increase your winrate.

#16 21st August 2012, 11:29 AM

For me its position. Plugging the leak when playing hards out of position will rapidly improve your winrate. Position gives you information, information wins you dollars.

Obviously this is only 1 aspect of the game, however once i fully understood this when i first started, i won at a much better rate than before i bothered about it.

#17 21st August 2012, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by baudib1

This is awful advice for a SNG player.

No, it isn't.

#18 21st August 2012, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nooneinparticular

No, it isn't.

Oh and if you're going to state it's bad, then at least state why. Muppet.

Stealing 150 in blinds by pushing all in for 3000 cannot possiblt be right in any situation (except late on, on the bubble or just before it...).
If you want to win 150, then 450 gets the same job done as 3000 without the risk of walking into monsters.

If the same person does keep reraise push stealing you then adapt to that person......

#19 21st August 2012, 3:32 PM

3xing on 20 BB stacks is ridiculous. For the most part SNG play is going to be push/fold.

#20 21st August 2012, 4:08 PM

The single most important thing to learn / improve depends on the current state of your game plus what the most significant opportunities are to improve your EV against the opponents you face. Absent the former, any advice is general, not specific to you.

#21 21st August 2012, 4:17 PM

The one thing I learned early on was "Don't Chase", it will bleed off your chips faster than any other thing you do.

Poker is about variance, you will have winning times and losing times. You need to avoid going on "tilt". It will kill you mentally and negatively affect your bankroll.

#22 21st August 2012, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by baudib1

3xing on 20 BB stacks is ridiculous. For the most part SNG play is going to be push/fold.

Looks like we're going to have to disagree. It probably depends on how you play. You sound like a mass tabler who plays by numbers and doesnt actually play any "poker".

For me, 3xing or even 2xing pre works wonderfully, far better than push/fold. All I see for those push/folding is people who end up playing a flip, then another flip, and so on. They don't read range or think hands through.

Put a load of Push/folders together and it becomes a load of 50/50 flips which over time no one wins from by definition of something being a 50/50.

#23 21st August 2012, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Nooneinparticular

You sound like a mass tabler who plays by numbers and doesnt actually play any "poker".

More like a kick ass player who knows what's what.

Two ears/eyes... one mouth. The reason for this is so that you take in twice what you spew out.

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#24 21st August 2012, 4:49 PM

Baudib has been known to favor the ring tables and approaches tourney's from that POV.....

#25 21st August 2012, 5:43 PM

Anyone who wants to play "real poker" shouldn't play SNGs. SNGs are about playing solved spots over and over, abusing the bubble, maintaining FE and optimal/unexploitable shoving ranges.

When you have 20 BBs effective you have more options than push/fold but 3Xing is going to be horrible at those stack sizes no matter what format you're playling.

#26 22nd August 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by baudib1

Anyone who wants to play "real poker" shouldn't play SNGs. SNGs are about playing solved spots over and over, abusing the bubble, maintaining FE and optimal/unexploitable shoving ranges.

When you have 20 BBs effective you have more options than push/fold but 3Xing is going to be horrible at those stack sizes no matter what format you're playling.

I play hyper turbos on stars almost exclusively. So 500 chip starting stack, fast action, ante's, very agressive and stealing is a huge part so my opinions come mainly from that play. I do play live as well and 3xing isnt, but pushing is still crazy unless its later on. But then, the same is true of Hypers, later on, its all about push or fold.

What is working for me because of that is a small raise later on, min raising is being seen as being very strong. I think its all about mixing it up so your range can't be read, not just about poker by numbers.......

#27 22nd August 2012, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nooneinparticular

I play hyper turbos on stars almost exclusively. So 500 chip starting stack, fast action, ante's, very agressive and stealing is a huge part so my opinions come mainly from that play. I do play live as well and 3xing isnt, but pushing is still crazy unless its later on. But then, the same is true of Hypers, later on, its all about push or fold.

What is working for me because of that is a small raise later on, min raising is being seen as being very strong. I think its all about mixing it up so your range can't be read, not just about poker by numbers.......

Doesnt this make you very easily taken by a slow play near the middle in those tourneys?

#28 22nd August 2012, 10:18 PM

They last about 7 to 8 minutes, and the middle is typically the bubble 3 or 4 handed, so no one can really slow play. Of course if I min raise, and get flat called by someone who is TAG or even timid mouse rings all sorts of alarm bells..... It all depends on what the player doing the slow play flat call is like.

I am of course using a sophisticated HUD system which is giving me VPIP, PFR and all sorts of other stuff and changes it depending on which street you are on.....

#29 23rd August 2012, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nooneinparticular

Blah blah blah blah

You are a complete contradiction. First you abuse a poster about not playing "real poker" and then you mention you almost exclusively play hyper-turbos on Stars, about as close to an allin/fold tourney structure as you can get.

#30 23rd August 2012, 1:39 AM

But to get back to the OPs legit question, the best thing you can do is learn "proper" starting hand ranges based on position. In a nutshell, play top 10 hands in early position, top 15 in mid position, and top 25 in late position.

^^^ vague, general advice only ... do not take verbatim

#31 23rd August 2012, 2:03 AM

Learn patience. Infinite patience...

#32 23rd August 2012, 3:54 AM

Originally Posted by baudib1

Anyone who wants to play "real poker" shouldn't play SNGs. SNGs are about playing solved spots over and over, abusing the bubble, maintaining FE and optimal/unexploitable shoving ranges.

When you have 20 BBs effective you have more options than push/fold but 3Xing is going to be horrible at those stack sizes no matter what format you're playling.

My Dad says this is one guy from Cardschat who's posts I should read alot of. I can't see him saying that if he thought this guy wasn't a really good player.
I've also been reading Collin Moshmann's Sit'nGo book a bunch and to me this sounds right.

The one thing I have been told to do is to READ A POKER BOOK. I thought I would hate it but I actually really like it. Makes me want to play even more.

#33 23rd August 2012, 4:02 AM

1) listen to baudib1.
2) review and post hands and try to understand the theory behind poker
3) join a training site.

#34 23rd August 2012, 3:14 PM

1) Stop playing sngs.
2) If you still have the urge to play sngs see rule 3.
3) Stop playing poker.

#35 23rd August 2012, 8:43 PM

And play what instead?

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