What’s the correct play here?

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ssbn743

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It’s Saturday and I’m in a live $210 deep stack tournament with 30 minute levels at my local casino. Starting stacks are 35K. The Blinds are 4000 - 2000 with a 400 chip ante and I have been on a rush and have about 225K.

This hand occurs right at the end of Level 12, just before the dinner break. The level expires during this hand and everyone is folding and leaving at the same time. I’m in the big blind and the small blind moves all-in for about 50K. I find red 88.

The small blind is a very good player and one that I respect immensely; but that’s a double edged sword as I know he is capable of that move with absolutely anything. To hell with it, I fold and go on break, he shows J 4 off suit trying to tilt me I guess.

The tilt thing didn’t’ work, I knew at best we were racing and I was sure I had the best hand. But, the break is upon us and I have no interest in getting involved for 20% of my stack. I probably should have called, and I would have in a lot of situations, but I can keep 225K and go into the dinner break by folding – of course, that’s exactly how he wants me to think about it too!

I probably should have called but I have read before that it’s best just to go on break in these situations. I don’t know; thoughts?
 
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doomasiggy

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prolly snap calling tbh. bvb he's short stacked and he's shoving pretty wide here normally.
 
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Nooneinparticular

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As you know him, and he knows you, Im calling just for future weeks fear equity being higher and stopping him doing this move again.... His range definately includes Ax, Kx and loads of other stuff which means he has 1 over.....
 
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ssbn743

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Nooneinparticular said:
As you know him, and he knows you, Im calling just for future weeks fear equity being higher and stopping him doing this move again.... His range definately includes Ax, Kx and loads of other stuff which means he has 1 over.....
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Yeah but most likely two overs not just one; I had worked very hard for the chips I had and I had a nice stack – of course, if I had known he had J4 off…but I didn’t, and I didn’t want to race for that much.

On the flip side, though you’re absolutely right. After the break I was in the big blind again when he made the same move. He had doubled up a few hands earlier so I now had to call around 100K and found Q 10 off. I folded but immediately thought “I should have called with those eights”.

So I put myself in that position. Like I said I would call with the eights in a lot of situations, but with halftime pending, I opted for the victory formation kneel down; I’m just wondering if that was right or not.

I was certainly the safe play, but what does tournament poker dictate. I’ve heard it both ways:

“If you have the chance to take a man out you do it!”

“Fold. No need to race and possibly double up a strong opponent.”
 
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doomasiggy

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ssbn743 said:
Yeah but most likely two overs not just one;
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And?

We should never be scared to flip for less than half our stack. Villain shoved 12bb with 9600 in the pot.

He's basically shoving any pair in that spot, suited connectors 78 or better. Ax's, Q9+ JTs+ and any pair. We crush his range pretty hard

bvb we should deffo be calling a shove from a short stack with pocket 88
 
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Nooneinparticular

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I dont buy the "most likely with 2 overs" at all. In this situation, with KQ, KJ,AJ, etc, he is more likely to be doing a normal 2.5 to 3x raise. This push, in this position, with the break now, screams a steal and his range is literally any 2, without the really much stronger top 15 to 20% of hands.

With your stack, its a call all day long. but hey, now you know, which is the point of discussing things on here :)
 
ovitoo

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ssbn743 said:
It’s Saturday and I’m in a live $210 deep stack tournament with 30 minute levels at my local casino. Starting stacks are 35K. The Blinds are 4000 - 2000 with a 400 chip ante and I have been on a rush and have about 225K.

This hand occurs right at the end of Level 12, just before the dinner break. The level expires during this hand and everyone is folding and leaving at the same time. I’m in the big blind and the small blind moves all-in for about 50K. I find red 88.

The small blind is a very good player and one that I respect immensely; but that’s a double edged sword as I know he is capable of that move with absolutely anything. To hell with it, I fold and go on break, he shows J 4 off suit trying to tilt me I guess.

The tilt thing didn’t’ work, I knew at best we were racing and I was sure I had the best hand. But, the break is upon us and I have no interest in getting involved for 20% of my stack. I probably should have called, and I would have in a lot of situations, but I can keep 225K and go into the dinner break by folding – of course, that’s exactly how he wants me to think about it too!

I probably should have called but I have read before that it’s best just to go on break in these situations. I don’t know; thoughts?
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I don't kno how you fold here. "at best we're racing" is TOTALLY incorrect. And your not "getting involved with 20% of your stack". Your stacking a guy who you have well covered. There is sooooo many hands we have dominated here.

I'm shocked you dont snap. :hmmmm:
 
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dan abnormal

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So what was the outcome of the tourny

What would of tilted you more, seeing the what he had (which you did) or calling and having a jack hit the river and then goto to dinner break saying DAMN,

and then come back from break with your stack 50K less, thats almost a 1/4 of your stack youd of lost by SNAP calling

but if this advice is right (and I gotta assume it is)
And?

We should never be scared to flip for less than half our stack. Villain shoved 12bb with 9600 in the pot. then this is a major hole in my live game
 
ovitoo

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regardless of the fact this is a standard call hu... your coming back from break with 56bbs if you fold and 43bbs if you call and he takes the pot. Playing a 43bb stack is not difficult. No reason to miss this opportunity to pick up 11bbs. Spots like this are ideal.
 
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jsaw

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You said he was a very good players, with a wide range, and short stacked and will be playing for 20% of your stack. Agree with others this is a clear call to his shove at any time but especially since he working two additional factors: the 20% rule and that its break time. As Ovitoo said you want to discourage others from attempting to steal your blinds and also have a chance to eliminate a player you have assess positively.
 
dj11

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From the way you presented this situation, I think you too were already on break, and ready for some food...... really...were you feeling some bladder pressure?

I think you missed an opportunity, not only a good shot at those chips, but a chance to knock out what you call a capable villain. Probably pissed him off a bit too, his move was what I call pokercide (in this case poker + suicide) ...he was ready and willing to go home. You made him have to come back, gave him that glimmer of hope....

I hope you did not compound things by turning over your cards while gathering you stuff together for the break......
 
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doomasiggy

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Nooneinparticular said:
I dont buy the "most likely with 2 overs" at all. In this situation, with KQ, KJ,AJ, etc, he is more likely to be doing a normal 2.5 to 3x raise.
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No he's shoving his entire range. Raising KJ+/22+ and shoving J4o+ is a huge tell.
 
Rldetheflop

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If I am sitting there in the BB with 88 and it is folded to the small blind with a short stack I am hoping he shoves into me these are the situations we are hoping for with a respectable sized stack.
 
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Nooneinparticular

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doomasiggy said:
No he's shoving his entire range. Raising KJ+/22+ and shoving J4o+ is a huge tell.
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He pprob should shove AA/KK/QQ/AK but I just cant see him doing so. One of the buggest online tells I see loads is a short stack suddenly min raising with AA. Just cracks me up every time.......

But yes, shoving KJ, K10, etc without a doubt. 88 is still miles ahead tough, you can't be flipping against 2 overs more than half the time, probably nearer 30%?

Someone do the maths!
 
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ssbn743

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You know I know a call was the right move there most of the time, I even said it…but the game’s not all about math you know – if it were anyone with a calculator could win!

On this specific hand though I do wish I had called and agree with everyone that suggested I missed a great opportunity; and you’re right it was very clearly pokercide by my opponent, and I knew it when he did it – but it just felt like I wouldn’t come out on top! But man do I wish I had called, win or lose it was the right play!

I did end up winning this one about 5 hours later – of course winning is a loose term as we almost always chop it up and this night was no exception as we chopped at 3; but I had the chip lead and got paid the most money, so it’s sort of a win I guess. And for all the math geniuses out there that are going to have a field day with what I just said, you’re not thinking of tax laws and other crucial details. In Colorado anything over 5 dimes is taxable, the first prize payout for this one was $5345 and I chopped for $4800 and no taxes – so I don’t want to hear it!
 
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Hi five the dealer and call, we have >50% equity and we dont even need that much.
 
JOEBOB69

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duggs said:
Hi five the dealer and call, we have >50% equity and we dont even need that much.
Click to expand...

2144917_o.gif
 
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Nooneinparticular

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ssbn743 said:
You know I know a call was the right move there most of the time, I even said it…but the game’s not all about math you know – if it were anyone with a calculator could win!

On this specific hand though I do wish I had called and agree with everyone that suggested I missed a great opportunity; and you’re right it was very clearly pokercide by my opponent, and I knew it when he did it – but it just felt like I wouldn’t come out on top! But man do I wish I had called, win or lose it was the right play!

I did end up winning this one about 5 hours later – of course winning is a loose term as we almost always chop it up and this night was no exception as we chopped at 3; but I had the chip lead and got paid the most money, so it’s sort of a win I guess. And for all the math geniuses out there that are going to have a field day with what I just said, you’re not thinking of tax laws and other crucial details. In Colorado anything over 5 dimes is taxable, the first prize payout for this one was $5345 and I chopped for $4800 and no taxes – so I don’t want to hear it!
Click to expand...

So if you chop it for $4800 you dont pay tax? are you saying "5 dimes" is 5000? Sorry I'm English and 5 grand, or 5k is 5000 here, and we don't pay tax on winnings, ever :)
 
Ducky7

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Just because it is the end of the level or a dinner break it does not mean it should effect your poker play, irrelevant of what is going to happen next hand or in 10 hands time you should be playing the hand as you would in every situation.

I understand your reasons for not wanting to call however, i would take into consideration that as its a dinner break next, the player in the SB will probably have the thought process i will try double up this hand so i have something to come back to after the dinner break rather than coming back to a few big blinds. Meaning our calling range should be wider, not all players will do this but from what i have seen it happens fairly often.
 
dj11

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Nooneinparticular said:
So if you chop it for $4800 you dont pay tax? are you saying "5 dimes" is 5000? Sorry I'm English and 5 grand, or 5k is 5000 here, and we don't pay tax on winnings, ever :)
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I'm American and never heard that usage.......

Under those circumstances the chop was correct and +EV.
 
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ssbn743

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Yeah, anything over $5,000, actually I believe it’s $4,999 to be exact, that’s in Colorado and Vegas I’m pretty sure as well, I know I got taxed on a $9500 win in Vegas one time. If I were to win ~ $5300 I have to pay 20%-25% in taxes at a minimum. And that’s assuming I win; what if something goes wrong and I catch a bad beat or something, then I get like $2300 (I don’t remember what 3rd was so that is a made up number). So I chop for the $4500 to $4900 range quite often; every time actually. This is bad though because I never get any live heads up experience – my only heads up practice is online and as an American that’s a giant pain in the ass because of the socialist monster we have in office.

Really, no one has ever heard of “5 dimes” as slang for $5000? Wow, must be a Colorado thing I guess.

But I really wish I had called, I blew that one…case closed:( I did still win though, that’s got to count for something right?
 
JOEBOB69

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ssbn743 said:
Yeah, anything over $5,000, actually I believe it’s $4,999 to be exact, that’s in Colorado and Vegas I’m pretty sure as well, I know I got taxed on a $9500 win in Vegas one time. If I were to win ~ $5300 I have to pay 20%-25% in taxes at a minimum. And that’s assuming I win; what if something goes wrong and I catch a bad beat or something, then I get like $2300 (I don’t remember what 3rd was so that is a made up number). So I chop for the $4500 to $4900 range quite often; every time actually. This is bad though because I never get any live heads up experience – my only heads up practice is online and as an American that’s a giant pain in the ass because of the socialist monster we have in office.

Really, no one has ever heard of “5 dimes” as slang for $5000? Wow, must be a Colorado thing I guess.

But I really wish I had called, I blew that one…case closed:( I did still win though, that’s got to count for something right?
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No every one i know that has ever gambled in person from the US knows a dime =1k$
 
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well you know him

well you know him and hes a good player ok do you keep letting him do this in tournaments and just fold your hands you should call .It may happen in another tournament also just keep in mind you are just as good and im not folding on assumption or am i ever gonna stay ahead or continue to wonder like so.goodluck against your friend and hope all the replys help.:)
 
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