What level MTT Buyin to play REAL poker

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What level should I play at to play real poker and not shove all in with pocket 3's preflop poker? I have only played micro tournaments but I am thinking of moving up to $5 buy in? Would I notice a difference there or do people still not care if they lose?
 
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RamdeeBen

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Micros are still $5.00 games. Are you asking if you can't beat $1.00 games, can you beat $5? Then no you can't.

If your wanting to play games where people think more about hand ranges, play a much better solid poker game and not making terrible mistakes then you are looking at $100+ games.
 
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Micros are still $5.00 games. Are you asking if you can't beat $1.00 games, can you beat $5? Then no you can't.

If your wanting to play games where people think more about hand ranges, play a much better solid poker game and not making terrible mistakes then you are looking at $100+ games.

Naw I can beat the $1.00 games, just want to get out of the preflop all in fest that micro MTT's are. I do not mind doing a couple coin flips throughout a tournament but if you are doing 10+ coinflips in a 2.5 hour tournament it really comes down to luck over skill.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Naw I can beat the $1.00 games, just want to get out of the preflop all in fest that micro MTT's are. I do not mind doing a couple coin flips throughout a tournament but if you are doing 10+ coinflips in a 2.5 hour tournament it really comes down to luck over skill.

Trust me, there's less luck involved the lower your playing.

If you can beat the tiny $1 games then build your bankroll and you should be playing the $5 games within in a few weeks. Flipping for your tournament isn't a bad thing either as you will need to win several to win a tournament. Best thing ever is having fish wanting to stack of light all the time. The higher you go, the less this becomes. You don't just get people wanting flips in micros, you get them shoving their 10 & 20% equity hands.
 
newbie in training

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Ya fliping aslong as yoir 50%+ to win your good to go

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Ok, with that being said do you guys think I need to let my AK holding go early on when people shove? Should I shove with my pocket pairs since I would be the overdog unless they had a higher pocket pair obviously. (I feel like 90% of the shoves come from low pocket pairs)
 
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RamdeeBen

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Ok, with that being said do you guys think I need to let my AK holding go early on when people shove? Should I shove with my pocket pairs since I would be the overdog unless they had a higher pocket pair obviously. (I feel like 90% of the shoves come from low pocket pairs)

It depends on the player, how deep we are and the structure. If it's a turbo I'm almost never folding AK. if you have an absolute nit though who 4b shoves and we"re still quite deep, I'd consider folding as at best we're going to be chopping.

Again smaller/medium pocket pairs just depends on the players in question, stack depths etc. It's never bad to 3b shove though vs loose players for example.
 
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It depends on the player, how deep we are and the structure. If it's a turbo I'm almost never folding AK. if you have an absolute nit though who 4b shoves and we"re still quite deep, I'd consider folding as at best we're going to be chopping.

Again smaller/medium pocket pairs just depends on the players in question, stack depths etc. It's never bad to 3b shove though vs loose players for example.

I am talking about the first hour or so of these tournaments where it is just a 3b shove. Lets say I am utg and I raise 4 BB with AK next 2 players fold, 1 calls, one folds. another caller, 2 folds and then the BB shoves all in with pocket 4's. I am an underdog in that situation and that is how it almost always plays out. Should I be folding AK there?
 
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RamdeeBen

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We'll we never know for sure he is shoving 44 or some other smaller medium pocket pair. We have to take into account this player whole range of hands.

If we know and can see his cards and he does have 44 then you need to decide if you want to flip for your tournament life at this point. Point is though, we don't know his cards but what you do know at at micros is that you can count on them shoving much worse hands than pocket pairs. If you have a Player running 40/35 for example and we have been playing a tournament for an hour, we're likely 60bb deep so it's a snap call as it would be at 100bb deep.

You're best just posting hands though as examples because there's so many variables that there is no clear cut answer, other than I can say it's not going to be bad to flip for your tournament early on, as it's always +Ev.
 
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Alright thanks man, I suppose I am just more frustrated then anything because I constantly get shoved by small pocket pairs which you are always an underdog too unless you have a bigger pocket pair. This really only happens in the first hour too so maybe I should just be a super nit the first hour and fold my AJ+ to preflop donk shoves just to ensure my spot later in the tournament.
 
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1.00$ MTT has a strategy for it to be beat, it's more of a gear shift. U would have to play in a few 100.00$ MTT's and many other tourneys varying in small to large buy-in amounts to understand this. Then u will be able to seak out a low limit tourney style that has been adjusted after seeing how all tourney sizes have been played. The lower limit micro tourneys (yes) tend to be a shove fest, then that's the gear your gonna have to play in by picking strong whole hands, folding trash, and folding even more. If u can pick a few good spots in the early rounds of a micro MTT the "shovers" will eventually shove then selves out a few rounds after reg. If you play a 100.00$ MTT u will shoving pre in a lot of pots doesn't happen as often and if it does ur prolly shoving into the nuts. The 100.00$ MTT is a whole different gear, so to say "what limit MTT do they start playing real poker in" just meNs u gotta try playing a few more big limit tournaments to understand how to beat a smaller limit tournament. It might sound crazy but from aging in higher buy-in tournaments it's helped me identify more winning spots in a lower buy-in tournament and sigher a deep run.
 
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1.00$ MTT has a strategy for it to be beat, it's more of a gear shift. U would have to play in a few 100.00$ MTT's and many other tourneys varying in small to large buy-in amounts to understand this. Then u will be able to seak out a low limit tourney style that has been adjusted after seeing how all tourney sizes have been played. The lower limit micro tourneys (yes) tend to be a shove fest, then that's the gear your gonna have to play in by picking strong whole hands, folding trash, and folding even more. If u can pick a few good spots in the early rounds of a micro MTT the "shovers" will eventually shove then selves out a few rounds after reg. If you play a 100.00$ MTT u will shoving pre in a lot of pots doesn't happen as often and if it does ur prolly shoving into the nuts. The 100.00$ MTT is a whole different gear, so to say "what limit MTT do they start playing real poker in" just meNs u gotta try playing a few more big limit tournaments to understand how to beat a smaller limit tournament. It might sound crazy but from aging in higher buy-in tournaments it's helped me identify more winning spots in a lower buy-in tournament and sigher a deep run.


K, I suppose I just need to tighten up more in the first hour or so of the tournament. That is what the books say but it is hard to actually understand how tight they mean, but I am getting a better idea! Thanks for the feedback guys.
 
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redwards92

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K, I suppose I just need to tighten up more in the first hour or so of the tournament. That is what the books say but it is hard to actually understand how tight they mean, but I am getting a better idea! Thanks for the feedback guys.


Just adjust your calling range vs shoves from aggressive fish and maniac fish

99+(maniac dependant sometimes I go as low as 77 or 66 but you will be flipping a lot of the time) AQo+ ( the biggest fish will call and also shove with things like Ax sooted, A10, AJ, A9 and even worse etc.. making this easily a profitable part of the calling range as long as villian is certified huge whale fish)

^ Just pay attention to how much of a maniac they are and adjust your range accordingly.
 
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When I'm tightening up in the early levels and everybody is shoving, it makes it harder to get a read on the villains hand (although range reading difficulty shouldn't change much) I try to use the positioning a lot for a read on my hands strength in these early level MTT micros. U can real use ur opponents positioning to your advantage in these spots, by making it a very easy decision weather to raise, call or fold
 
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^ Just pay attention to how much of a maniac they are and adjust your range accordingly.[/QUOTE]

( yeah what he said^ this is the "Y" variable in the Y*X+B= deep runs) equation:hmmmm:
 
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I am talking about the first hour or so of these tournaments where it is just a 3b shove. Lets say I am utg and I raise 4 BB with AK next 2 players fold, 1 calls, one folds. another caller, 2 folds and then the BB shoves all in with pocket 4's. I am an underdog in that situation and that is how it almost always plays out. Should I be folding AK there?
No.
It's important to give more info. (stack sizes, reads (if any) ).
without knowing stack sizes, it's still an insta-call here w AK.
 
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redwards92

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^ Just pay attention to how much of a maniac they are and adjust your range accordingly.


What i mean is use the information you have available on them to determine how much of a maniac they are.

If you don't have a hud/tracker then I recommend getting one they are very useful.

Generally the range I posted is pretty much my standard calling range early when I know villian is a huge fish.


Also in micro tourneys you will find that a lot of fish will shove off there last ~20-30ish bb's if they lose most of their stack in the early levels.

Sometimes I like to pick these spots off in the right situation and isolate the tilted fish for the rest of his stack but you have to be aware of your position and who else is left to act.


As long as your calling range dominates the majority of their super wide shoving range then you will be fine.
 
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OMGjustinBIEBS

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^ I agree, if every player knew how to adjust perfectly to the villains range poker would be even harder
 
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Ey tgat titled fish is me most of the time lol and I agree youll se a fish lose 1k right off the bat and stsrt shoving every hand when blinds are 10/20 I think you should call down way lighter just to get his chips and not let anyone else gets them but imo yiu shiuld probably raise so you wont have to worry abiut KJs against your 10Ao

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pushing all in preflop with 33 is just a strategy of all or nothing. these guys want to win the tournament of want to go home with empty pockets. just dodge them if you don't like to gamble. imo the skill in 5$ mtt is a lot more serious yet. just build your roll steadily and don't skip buy in levels
 
Arjonius

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if you are doing 10+ coinflips in a 2.5 hour tournament it really comes down to luck over skill.
It's short-sighted to look only at the flips themselves. Where skill and knowledge come into play is having a stack where you can afford to take flips and in knowing when you should / have to take them vs. when it's in your better interest not to.

As for moving up to $5 games, it's not an all or nothing matter of move up or don't. For example, set aside your winnings at your usual $1 level until you have say $27.50. Then use that money to take a shot. See how you fare and gauge what you should work on so you can at least break even when you actually move up.

If you feel you're ready, then all you have to do is grind your current level until you have enough BR to play at the $5 level. If you're not ready to move up, then you'll probably learn that you're not without losing as much as you would have by simply moving up. And of course, you can work on your game and save enough to take another shot when you feel you've improved enough.
 
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you should move up to 215+ imo
 
Arjonius

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you should move up to 215+ imo
Heheh. When you get to the levels where you see name players, there no doubt it's real poker. However, as I'm sure you know, that's not the kind of real poker the OP is hoping to find. He wants predictable poker. Ironically, real poker at high levels is arguably just as unpredictable as it is at the lowest levels, although not in the same ways.
 
Randall McMurphy

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I see quite a few bluff/shoves in the 1st three levels of standard tournaments at the $20 stake. A tell is the insta- shove that early. Of course there are times they have it too. * sighs *
 
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