What do you do?

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ssbn743

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I’m in a live $160 buy in tournament with 20K starting stacks and 30 minute levels.

I was cruising right along for hours and had a big hand occur with right before the dinner break (level 12).

I started the hand with ~$200K and blinds were $2K-$4K with a $100 ante.

This is a June tournament at my local casino and with the wsop all the regs are in Vegas, so my casino altered the buy-in and structure; which didn’t sit too well with me especially since there was no notification at all - they just did it to accommodate the casual player who didn’t want to buy-in for $200+ and doesn’t even know what structure means. Anyway, so this tourney is filled with extremely weak and novice play and has had many of the intermediate levels eliminated.

One player in particular really stood out in my mind and was two seats to my right. We started out on our first table together where I watched him snap call an early all-in with Q 10 off and win. In the time since he had built a nice stack and had about $225K. 12 levels later I found him at my new table two seats to my right.

Every one folds to this player and he open limps the hijack for $4K. From the button I find :qc4: :qs4: and raise to $16,500.

The BB (a rock tight woman) moves all-in for $35K and the hijack seat flat calls.

I move all-in since the BB’s all-in re-opened the betting round and am instantly called by the hijack.

The BB had :ac4: :kd4: while the hijack had :ad4: :jd4:

A king and two diamonds hit the flop but the flush or ace did not get there. I lost to the AK, but doubled through jacktard in the hijack. After it was all counted out, I ended up with about $350K.

A few hands later the player that was in the hijack seat from the hand above busted and left an empty seat. We were down to three tables (24-27 players).
Not very long after the above hand took place, the following hand takes place. The levels had gone up to $2500/$5000/$500

From UTG a weak passive player (that actually blinded out at the final table) limps for $5K with a $50K stack. The player immediately to my right limps in as well with about a $250K stack, and with the tournament chip lead I elected to limp as well on a weak and passive table, where I’m nearly certain the pot won’t be raised, with :8c4: :9h4:

Everyone else folds.

The player to my right is a decent and regular player; an older man, probably close to 70 years of age that goes by the name of George. He is very aggressive and that has made him fairly successful. However at times I feel he doesn’t know how to take his foot off the gas. Additionally, he can be very predictable and transparent at times, especially pre-flop as he will not raise pocket pairs but will limp call anything you can bet. When he does raise pre, he has a hand guaranteed.

Pot: $26K

The flop is :8h4: :kd4: :9c4:

The UTG player leads out for $5K and George moves all-in for ~$250K.

What do you do?

I’ll post the results later.
 
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PurgatoryD

PurgatoryD

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That shove makes no sense to me. I can't figure out what he's on. That's the problem with limping if you do hit something... you have no idea where you're at.

Sorry, this is probably stupid, but given where you are at in the tourney, the fact that everyone limped, you have a nice stack size, and the fact that I cannot for the life of me figure out why he shoved, I would fold. Sorry, that's just my gut on this one.

(As an aside, I'm guessing he has a set, not a drawing hand. I can't wait to hear how this played out.)
 
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Flsnookman

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Maybe a set but not kk, Thats my guess.
 
PurgatoryD

PurgatoryD

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Maybe a set but not kk, Thats my guess.

Yeah, I agree with you, limping with KK would have been a terrible move. I'm going to stick with the set. He limped with a low-middle pocket pair and then hit it big.

If he's totally crazy, I suppose he could have limped with AA as a trap. But that would be insane. He hit a set. That's the only thing that makes any sense.
 
Tinie107

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This shove is a huge overbet doesn't make a lot of sense could be just a total bluff, normally if you had a set here you would be value raising. I think he has some sort of draw J10 and shoved to take the pot down there and then and it worst if he gets called he has outs. I could be wrong though and he has 88 or 99 anyway it's a fold here for you.
 
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ssbn743

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George is very aggressive, and I know it. I don’t think he hit a set here because I’m nearly certain he would value raise less than all-in. The only hands I’m afraid of from him are K8 and K9. That’s how I was thinking about it in real time as well; and both hands are well within his second limp range.

However, I’ve seen him numerous times over the many years I played him use this kind of move with a weak hand, but let me be clear, I knew this was not a bluff, he certainly had a piece. I even said so out loud at the table, “I know you’ve only got a King George” as I watched him stare calmly at the table.

My gut was screaming call, call, call, CALL, CALL, CALL, CALL, CALL, CCCCAAAAAALLLLLLLLL!

But my head was telling me not to:

1. This is a limped pot and we all know Doyle’s rule never to lose all your chips in an un-raised pot.
2. He could easily have bottom two-pair beat.
3. I have virtually no money invested.
4. If I f*&^ this up, I lose a really nice stack that I worked long and hard to get.

On the flip side:

1. I could double up and gain nearly a 6:1 chip lead over the next nearest stack with 2 tables left.
2. I could eliminate two players in one fell swoop.

We always talk about playing fearless poker, but I just couldn’t do it; I felt the risk far outweighed the reward even though I knew I was good with bottom two pair; I, therefore, FORCED myself to fold in clear contradiction to every instinct and gut feeling I had!

After I folded the UTG player calls all-in and shows :kc4: :jh4:

George shows :ks4: :10c4:

My bottom two pair would have held up after the turn and river were dealt! His action really does irritate the hell out of me, I could’ve have knocked a player out, something that would have been mutually beneficial; instead he gets involved with a questionable hand and nearly triples the short stack; WTF George? But this is exactly the kind of player he is and is the exact same reason I was nearly sure I was good on the flop.

I still feel the risk outweighed the reward and was generally glad I folded.

All three of the players listed in the post made the final table, but the weak player that was UTG folded his way to 9th place out of 9 paid; we also agreed to each pay the 10th place bubble $20, so he essentially got nothing; he actually blinded out as well, so that was kind of fun to watch!

However, George ended up knocking me out in 6th place!

Part of the problem was with the way the casino changed the structure to accommodate casual players as I said in the OP. At the final table we actually went from $6000/$12000/$1000 to $15000/$30000/$2000 and my $250K went from 20BB to 8BB in the blink of an eye. I still think that was total bull. There were $2.3 million chips in play and only two stacks above $500K; the average stack was 9BB-10BB; it was total crap and I’m still a little sore about it.

From the SB I was dealt :ah4: :jh4:

After everyone folded to George on the button he raised to $90K with about $250 back. As I said, whenever George raises pre-flop he has a hand, but I still felt I had no choice and moved all-in with 8BB and a suited Ace. He called with QQ and my night was over in 6th place.

So when I think back to that 89 hand I just cringe; I could’ve taken him out and also maybe had enough chips to survive the f*&^ed up structure!

So I guess that brings us to the point of this thread:

Do you call when it feels right, despite your knowing that every poker book and strategy article you have ever read tells you not to?
 
PurgatoryD

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His action really does irritate the hell out of me, I could’ve have knocked a player out, something that would have been mutually beneficial; instead he gets involved with a questionable hand and nearly triples the short stack; WTF George? But this is exactly the kind of player he is and is the exact same reason I was nearly sure I was good on the flop.

I'd have been pissed, too. Even though your read was dead on, I still think you made the right play. You simply had too much to lose at the time with little to no real information about his hand to go on. I think your play shows the maturity of your game.

As I said, whenever George raises pre-flop he has a hand, but I still felt I had no choice and moved all-in with 8BB and a suited Ace. He called with QQ and my night was over in 6th place.

Maybe a little tilt here? :) Even though you only had 8BB, due to the structure of the game, you're obviously not the only one in trouble. I'd have waited for the opportunity to lead the push instead of call. But I know how it goes. Sometimes you see painted faces, and you think it might be your last chance.

Do you call when it feels right, despite your knowing that every poker book and strategy article you have ever read tells you not to?

It turns out, you had a really good read of the player. And a lot of books tell you to play the player, not the cards. Maybe you should have. But I wouldn't have. Too many people switch their game up on purpose. A lot of LAG-type players tighten up when they get deep, so if you miss that, you're gone. But if George is more of a one-dimensional player, then maybe he just never changes his game.

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say, but I think at that particular point, you just had too much at risk with too little information about that particular hand. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the play-by-play. Fun stuff! :)
 
carv3523

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I think that the plays were well, is it very difficult to play against someone when you know little or when they do not have much time to think, changing the structure also affected you.


and it is really very difficult to risk much, when there is no much at stake, you often have to close the range and playing more passive losses that are less
 
aa88wildbill

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I think folding was the right thing to do ssbn743, if I'd been in your place I would've folded also!
 
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GWU73

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Fold. Bottom 2 pair is very dangerous in big pots.
 
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inflnlte

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I would fold. You're pretty deep and he could easily have a bigger two pair.
 
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