What is the correct decision here?

TheMuffier

TheMuffier

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Total posts
103
Chips
0
Pretty late in the 5.5 deep stack and close to the bubble, ~5-10 away. Did not update.

Hand: Qh6h. Blinds: 900/1800. Stack: ~12700 (7bb). Position: BB. Number of players: 6 handed full ring table.

Action:
Loose cut off (29/17 over 84) opens to 4.6. Loose SB (32/19/14.3 over 60) makes it 13500.

What do you do? What is the reasoning behind your decision?
If your reasoning hasn't explained it, please advise what things you factored in to get to that decision, thank you
 
PHX

PHX

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Total posts
7,127
Awards
16
TT
Chips
68
Too much action I would fold, hand not great although opponent are likely light here. Looking to shove next orbit any similar hand preferably an unopened or single raise pot. Maybe something as light as 78 suited if unopened or if single raise any suited K.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,432
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
You're that guy! With Q6s in BB facing a decision whether to jam your trashy hand and suck out two players who are likely also jamming with trashy hands.

Could either of them have even a low pair? As long as they are 55 and lower, it is a coin toss. Anything higher than 66 has you down toward 30% equity and QQ+ is complete domination.

You've already paid the big blind and the small blind won't take you out if you do not play this. You have a good 6 more orbits left in your stack to find a good spot to jam and stack up. So it comes down to this: are you still trying to win or do you want to make some money in this tournament?

If it is the latter, you fold and wait for a better spot. If it is the former, you are looking at trippling your stack with probably about 30% equity against their cards (it is not likely that either is holding something very good). It's not a bad spot. But I think you will find that the consensus is to fold.
 
TheMuffier

TheMuffier

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Total posts
103
Chips
0
Pretty late in the 5.5 deep stack and close to the bubble, ~5-10 away. Did not update.

Hand: Qh6h. Blinds: 900/1800. Stack: ~12700 (7bb). Position: BB. Number of players: 6 handed full ring table.

Action:
Loose cut off (29/17 over 84) opens to 4.6. Loose SB (32/19/14.3 over 60) makes it 13500.

What do you do? What is the reasoning behind your decision?
If your reasoning hasn't explained it, please advise what things you factored in to get to that decision, thank you
Answering my own question here. Please let me know what your thought s of my thought are. Thank you

Due to the amount of the cash being quite small and almost insignificant. There isn't any value in folding here. I pretty much have low to no fold equity at this point. Folding here puts me in an even worse situation as I have to pay the small blind next hand.
The chances of busting before the bubble bursts are extremely high as it is 6 handed so for that reason. I think calling off and hoping I'm live is my best bet. If I the hand, It's more than just a double up due to the 4.6k open.
It gives me a real fighting chance. And if I just out then GG, onto the next one.

If I fold, unless some miracle happens and I pick up some hands, I will more than likely be busting anyway, this way I have something's that's half decent in comparison to my stack.

During the game, I folded and busted the next hand A4o v KQo.

But during the review session. Without the in game pressure. I concluded that an all in would have been the more appropriate play.
 
puzzlefish

puzzlefish

🙉 🙈 🙊 student of the donk arts
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Total posts
4,432
Awards
3
CA
Chips
275
Answering my own question here. Please let me know what your thought s of my thought are. Thank you

Due to the amount of the cash being quite small and almost insignificant. There isn't any value in folding here. I pretty much have low to no fold equity at this point. Folding here puts me in an even worse situation as I have to pay the small blind next hand.
The chances of busting before the bubble bursts are extremely high as it is 6 handed so for that reason. I think calling off and hoping I'm live is my best bet. If I the hand, It's more than just a double up due to the 4.6k open.
It gives me a real fighting chance. And if I just out then GG, onto the next one.

If I fold, unless some miracle happens and I pick up some hands, I will more than likely be busting anyway, this way I have something's that's half decent in comparison to my stack.

During the game, I folded and busted the next hand A4o v KQo.

But during the review session. Without the in game pressure. I concluded that an all in would have been the more appropriate play.
All I have is to say about that is that Q6s and A4o are not very different in value.. the latter is marginally better. You probably could have waited a bit longer and blinded down a bit more for a better spot like a suited connector or gapped connector preferably with premium cards.. or even a pair. But otherwise I think our thinking regarding your original situation is similar.
 
TheMuffier

TheMuffier

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Total posts
103
Chips
0
You're that guy! With Q6s in BB facing a decision whether to jam your trashy hand and suck out two players who are likely also jamming with trashy hands.

Could either of them have even a low pair? As long as they are 55 and lower, it is a coin toss. Anything higher than 66 has you down toward 30% equity and QQ+ is complete domination.

You've already paid the big blind and the small blind won't take you out if you do not play this. You have a good 6 more orbits left in your stack to find a good spot to jam and stack up. So it comes down to this: are you still trying to win or do you want to make some money in this tournament?

If it is the latter, you fold and wait for a better spot. If it is the former, you are looking at trippling your stack with probably about 30% equity against their cards (it is not likely that either is holding something very good). It's not a bad spot. But I think you will find that the consensus is to fold.
I folded during the game but later (during review) concluded that a call and hoping I'm live would have been the more appropriate play.
I expected the hand to be heads up either vs SB or CO if he came over the top.

Thanks for your response
 
TheMuffier

TheMuffier

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Total posts
103
Chips
0
All I have is to say about that is that Q6s and A4o are not very different in value.. the latter is marginally better. You probably could have waited a bit longer and blinded down a bit more for a better spot like a suited connector or gapped connector preferably with premium cards.. or even a pair. But otherwise I think our thinking regarding your original situation is similar.
Yeah I saw your response. Completely agree. Yeah I'd have much rather some connecting cards there. I get it in on or suit in that spot if I'm honest. Thank you puzzlefish
 
Nathan Smith

Nathan Smith

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Total posts
224
Chips
0
This is just a fold - if you want to go all-in muliway flop. Use a better hand with straight potential. ie J10s 78s etc. Better off going all in against one opponent.
 
proud2Bwhack

proud2Bwhack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Total posts
333
Chips
0
I didnt read others, but I would be waiting in that spot. Q-6 is a terrible hand vs 2 interested parties number one, Number 2 problem is you will be on the button in 2 more hands, much better place to shove from, or wait beyond that. Would love to be at least ace high before shoving. You have the BBs to wait at least 5-6 more hands easy. Main thing is I would want to be the first to shove so I have the fold equity, that's foremost on my mind.
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
Depends on the game and the entire rhythm of the game - I do not rely heavily on HUD stats And barely consider the results after less than 100 hands of a players history. Assuming I am reading your layout correctly. 60-80 hands is not much history and can be deceiving. Just my Opinion .

They are still a good guide and the more hand history you have an particular players the better but to me it comes down to Puzzlefishes point you in it to win it or make the $$$. Shove is completely logical here, as is fold depending on your perspective. But the history I have with the table will influence whether I choose to push on a draw or fold and wait for a better opportunity with so many BBs left. I can see playing this hand either way with the same exact stats but different nlh games. Simply because it depends on how on top of my game I am that night. The logical move I believe is to fold. Not that I play logically, lol.
 
Anton Fedorov

Anton Fedorov

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Total posts
285
Chips
0
:qh4::6h4:is a bad hand against two opponents, and secondly you really have time to wait - you will be at the button at least once more, it is better to pop out of it or wait outside of it. I would like to be, at least, an ace high before pushing. You have BB to wait at least 5-6 hands. It is more profitable to push first, than to call two opponents, even with the same hand, when you push first, you realize the fold equity of your opponents, as this is a bubble.
 
Alex70793

Alex70793

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2018
Total posts
835
Awards
1
Chips
0
There is nothing to think, Q6 is a fold, reset and forget
 
BentleyBoy

BentleyBoy

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Total posts
2,384
Awards
8
Chips
306
I like this thread and even more so the responses that you have received to it. There is some really good learning here.

I have to say that my original response was to fold. However, considerring the comments made and then re running the situation in my head, I believe that I would still fold......... however completely agree that you could be justified in playing this hand. Much has t do really with what the other two players have been playing with. Are they tight, loose or how do you interpret their play. The basis for this is what do you think they have in their cards? What is their range? Each of these will assist the decision making process and support whether you do fold, or give it a go.

I also like the reminder to consider why you are actually playing that game in the first place. Is it to win, or is it to min cash? This will assist also, however, remember you should always be playing to win and be happy to lose what you paid to buy in. In those circumstances, playing the hand may not be such a bad idea. But balance that off against patience cos you could get dealt a monster in the next hand, or three queens could land on the board in this one.

This is a really good example of the wonder and beauty of poker.

Good luck.

BB
 
TheMuffier

TheMuffier

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Total posts
103
Chips
0
I didnt read others, but I would be waiting in that spot. Q-6 is a terrible hand vs 2 interested parties number one, Number 2 problem is you will be on the button in 2 more hands, much better place to shove from, or wait beyond that. Would love to be at least ace high before shoving. You have the BBs to wait at least 5-6 more hands easy. Main thing is I would want to be the first to shove so I have the fold equity, that's foremost on my mind.
At 5/6 Blinds you've already lost your fold equity and 5 or 6 hands implies you are not paying antes or the small blind, also 5 or 6 bigs is bad enough cause a double up effectively leaves you in the same position so to blind down any lower would be worse than shoving any two cards.

You are right about too much action for that hand strength but after much consideration. The hand strength relative to my stack size, situation and min cash. The shove is more valuable than the fold.

Definitely a fold in a satelite or for a decent size min cash.
 
TheMuffier

TheMuffier

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Total posts
103
Chips
0
Depends on the game and the entire rhythm of the game - I do not rely heavily on HUD stats And barely consider the results after less than 100 hands of a players history. Assuming I am reading your layout correctly. 60-80 hands is not much history and can be deceiving. Just my Opinion .

They are still a good guide and the more hand history you have an particular players the better but to me it comes down to Puzzlefishes point you in it to win it or make the $$$. Shove is completely logical here, as is fold depending on your perspective. But the history I have with the table will influence whether I choose to push on a draw or fold and wait for a better opportunity with so many BBs left. I can see playing this hand either way with the same exact stats but different nlh games. Simply because it depends on how on top of my game I am that night. The logical move I believe is to fold. Not that I play logically, lol.
For sure the stats at this point don't factor in but even if the stats were there id lean towards the all in almost always in this exact situation.

The variables to change that would be min cash amount or satellite. The larger the min cash the more I'm inclined to fold.

Otherwise it's an all in I believe
 
pirateglenn

pirateglenn

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Total posts
2,440
Awards
4
Chips
0
This is a fold in my opinion - aggressive loose players, close to min cash. 6 orbits left, i am happier playing another hand..sometimes we have to factor out the issue that we are BB and focus on the other action..i would feel 100% happier even jamming any ace or ace suited in that spot but you are going to get called down regardless..
What makes us feel compelled to play sometimes is the fact that everyone has almost folded to our BB and we have maybe 1/2 in pot, it does not mean we have to play though..i would suggest more people go on to cash in that spot by folding then calling/jamming it back in.
Good scenario and question!
 
kowrip

kowrip

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Total posts
368
Chips
0
I would fold for basically one reason. You're unlikely to get 1 of those 2 loose opponents to fold. That means you are going to be up against 2 players with a weak hand. If one of the players was tight and you had a good chancing of getting heads up against 1 other player, then I think an all-in might be worth it. In this case, I'd say no. I'd fold there. Even if you can't jam when in the SB, you would still have 5.5BB and 4 chances to jam before the blinds come around again. Plus, it's easier to jam from earlier positions since you don't let anybody else to open the action.
 
S

SweetLemonz

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Total posts
27
Chips
0
To be honest, if I am near to the bubble I don't play any hands unless they at least really good, I personally just let the bubble pass before I start playing medium level hands.
 
Brandlad

Brandlad

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Total posts
966
Chips
0
Need at least connectors like 2-3, 7-8 to shove at these place.
 
G

gryphon3005

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Total posts
353
Chips
0
I'm sure most of us have found ourselves in the same situation approaching the bubble with a 7\BB stack. I find that sometimes I gave into anxiety and shoved a little too soon thinking I wasn't going to get a better hand. Qh6h simply is not good enough for a shove here. The hand you went out on wasn't any better.

When I folded in these situations I always reminded myself that I could still wait a bit longer. After all, your stack would allow more than one orbit giving you a chance for a better opportunity. The problem is recognizing that evil anxiety...when it shows up affecting your decision process you never realize it's there at the time.....there's no warning buzzer in your head.
 
playinggameswithu

playinggameswithu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Total posts
2,250
Chips
0
Its time to JAM/SHOVE/ALL YOU CAN EAT. You are suited and probably alive with the queen at least. Beggars cant be choosers you can't afford to wait around with that few BB's if it get any lower you'll have to gamble to win two all-ins. JAMMMMM it sucks that it is multi-way but you can't choose your spots.
 
Gaviria8

Gaviria8

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Total posts
541
Chips
0
They're not folding any A-high, you're in the bubble, Q6s is so bad, you can fold, 7BB isn't that low to go all in with Q6s vs two guys. Just fold
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

Back to work ... zzzzz
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Total posts
8,477
Chips
0
I would fold. 2 other hands not likely to fold either. Weak hand against 2 others. Time to wait for a better hand. I would rather wait and make a little less with a good hand than lose with a bad hand.
 
P

popstani

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Total posts
635
Awards
1
Chips
1
For me , waiting for better spot is right play. I will wait until I’m the one who go all in first. For example, two hours ago I played some micro stakes NLO tournament and in the bubble I was on the BB with 1076 chips and blinds were 500-1000 and it was all in, 4 guys get into the pot and I won. Next hand was my win again and I was third in the tournament. Long story short, I finished in the second place, because of some river bad beat. So my thinking is waiting for the better spot is right play
 
leogetz79

leogetz79

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 30, 2017
Total posts
551
Chips
0
i think that in your position i would have gone all in. if your stack was 12700 and you just paid BB. im pretty sure they were stealing the blinds and probably know that if you dont have a strong hand you will fold. but at the same time youd dont have that much chips to scare them away by going all in. hard spot to be in, but because i believe luck has a lot to do with winning i would go all in
 
Top