What is a Good Win Rate?

I just played a 2k rebuy (won the seat in a freeroll) I was in the top10 with no rebuys and no add ons then dropped to about 30th after the add on break. Eventually I finished out of the prizes.

If I knew what a good win ratio was I'd find it easier to be more aggressive in a game. I could benchmark my performance and adjust play accordingly.

So how many tournaments would I expect to play at the £5 region with 200/300 players to win 1 or final table 2 or get 5 times my stake 10 times etc. To have what is considered a good win / prize rate.

I'm sure if I had a good idea of what was realistic / good then I'd find it much easier to take risks and be fully prepared to just accept the inevitable losses as part of a longer term goal.

An ROI (return on investment) of 10% per tournament or more is better than most. Just a guess but I think that would make you a top 15% player.

I seldom play re-buys, too damn long, but I've always heard re-buy at least once and always get the add on.

In the tournaments I've played you can only rebuy either if you have no chips or less than you bought in with - depending on tournament. So always rebuy at least once would mean always lose your chips. If you get a solid start you have no reason - and in fact no option to rebuy. This was the case last night, I sat tight for a while (whilst I was cooking dinner) then won some big hands and I was in 2nd place. Maybe i should have gone for the add-on but I hadn't paid for tournament seat I won it.

The whole 10% per tournament would be attractive if I was playing 2k entry tournaments but it isn't that attractive on a £5 entry. Really I want to know how many big cashes 20 x stake per tournament is good is it 1 in 20, 1 in 30, 1 in 50 etc.

Also maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way...

Edited to add on the rebuy thing the 888 99c frenzy is one I used to play and would sometimes rebuy up to 10 times in 5 mins to build a big stack. But the frenzy is about all out aggression -a bit like Russian roulette scenario.

I think if you are going to be successful in a rebuy then you have to be prepared to rebuy several times otherwise you will always be at a disadvantage. Also if there is an option to rebuy or add on from the start then this is also a good idea as you will have more chips and will get better value when you hit your premium hands

Randall McMurphy said:

An ROI (return on investment) of 10% per tournament or more is better than most. Just a guess but I think that would make you a top 15% player.

I seldom play re-buys, too damn long, but I've always heard re-buy at least once and always get the add on.

Click to expand...

This would be correct for STT-SNG but not for MTTs

It's a bad strategy to try to guage your play based on what my be perceived as a decent winrate over time... because to get a decent winrate you're going to need to be shooting for final tables. The money in MTT's is up top, often in the top 3 maybe top 5 places. Any decent MTT player is always going for the win. (there will be many times where you won't get ITM or may end up min.-cashing)

I've finished in the top 50 of the 'big' and the 'hot' series on stars 5 times from about 12 attempts in the last month.
and Ive final 2 tabled about 9 since april

I've never really put much thought into how good this is but im guessing it quite a good rate,
I just dont have the patience to committ I'd end up playing worse with all the games and frustration of missing out on the 4/5 figure top few prizes

Poker Orifice said:

This would be correct for STT-SNG but not for MTTs

It's a bad strategy to try to guage your play based on what my be perceived as a decent winrate over time... because to get a decent winrate you're going to need to be shooting for final tables. The money in MTT's is up top, often in the top 3 maybe top 5 places. Any decent MTT player is always going for the win. (there will be many times where you won't get ITM or may end up min.-cashing)

Click to expand...

Why you pick on me Orifice?

* neatly stacks his $215 Party and three $162 Bovada/bodog tickets won in his short time here *

Randall McMurphy said:

Why you pick on me Orifice?

* neatly stacks his $215 Party and three $162 Bovada/Bodog tickets won in his short time here *

Click to expand...

Only the first line was in reference to your comment & was hardly picking on you... it was merely stating a fact.

He couldent be more right listen to him dont go for a min cash if I had a 60 bi stack and theres like 5 players to the bubble I wake up with kjs im gonna shove most of the time even if I lose but if I win im looking at most of the time top 5

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

So what is the correct "fact" for MTT's? Keeping in mind the original question was " What is a good win rate? "

Randall McMurphy said:

So what is the correct "fact" for MTT's? Keeping in mind the original question was " What is a good win rate? "

Click to expand...

closer to ~ 35 to 40% ROI with ~12 to 15% ITM.

STT-SNG ~10% ROI (alot less for higher stakes ~1 to 3%)

MTT-SNG (reg. speed) 20-30% ROI (low buyin ie. $7 to $10 )

cotta777 said:

I've finished in the top 50 of the 'big' and the 'hot' series on stars 5 times from about 12 attempts in the last month.
and Ive final 2 tabled about 9 since april

I've never really put much thought into how good this is but im guessing it quite a good rate,
I just dont have the patience to committ I'd end up playing worse with all the games and frustration of missing out on the 4/5 figure top few prizes

Click to expand...

The thing is if you don't know how good this rate is how do you know if and when to move up in stake? Perhaps you don't need to play more games to make more money you just up your stake - if you're good enough.

For me though it's about establishing expectation so I can better calibrate whether I'm being too tight or too aggressive etc. Like last night a shorter stack went all in and I held KQ I thought about it but didn't go in, this was probably approaching the last quarter of the tournament. There were 2 in in the end and my hand wold have won - I would have been chip leader. Less than a dozen hands later and I end up shoving with QJ and I'm out.

Poker Orifice said:

closer to ~ 35 to 40% ROI with ~12 to 15% ITM.

STT-SNG ~10% ROI (alot less for higher stakes ~1 to 3%)

MTT-SNG (reg. speed) 20-30% ROI (low buyin ie. $7 to $10 )

Click to expand...

These are the kind of figures that help. If I play 4 x £5 stake MTT's and win £28 I'm on track? Where did the stats come from?

Also reading around a little I think I may have been too focused on ITM% which means I can be great at getting past bubble but by the time I do I'm usually too short stacked to contend without a couple back to back monster hands.

If ROI is good then ITM isn't a huge issue except for spotting potential to optimise play further?

I've never done the math so I may be wrong but I don't see the point of rebuy tournaments.

Seems to me that you would need to be pretty sure to finish on the FT as a minimum for it to be worthwhile.

There are some sites that have rebuy freerolls, surely that's an oxymoron.

I think they were invented by poker rooms to get more rake.

The rebuys do push up the prizes too though. In some instances if there were no rebuys or add-ons the tournament wouldn't be viable and neither would late entry (not that some would mind about that).

I have no stats or research to go with this, it is just my "gut" feeling.

If you are cashing 20% of the time in a MTT that is pretty good and of those times that you cash you should be getting to the top money spots (top 3 or 4 places) maybe 25% of the times you cash.

In other words if you played 100 MTTs you'd be a top finisher 5 times and you'd cash a total of 20 times. Those 5 big finishes will be roughly 10x your buy or better.

Obviously it depends on how big the field is because if it is huge then the top money spots might actually be the whole final table, or top 7 spots or something.

The top MTT players usually have something around a 13 - 18% ITM but their ROI is huge because they either bust early or get to the FT with a huge stack since they always play small edges and take more risks than the average player to get a massive stack to win the tournament. I believe something like 25% is a healthy ROI but you have to consider it over a good period of time, like at least a year of playing a LOT of tournaments before you get a reliable reflection of how good you are.