variance or mistake?

Lotok

Lotok

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I usually play live rather than online. Often end up at the final tables. Last night I was out in 3rd place. Only top 2 places paid in this tournament so I just missed out.

3 people left in, 2000/4000 blinds
BB [me] : (3xBB stack)
SB (about 7x BB stack)
Button (about 6x BB stack)

I am dealt QKs
Button and SB limp
I shove all in
Button calls with PP 55
SB folds

Cards come out A27J3

Now, with only 3 BB left and at final 3. Shove to double up seemed like a good call. When I was put out I put to down to variance. Question is, good shove or would a check to see flop and Buttons reaction been better?
 
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This seems a lot like a hyperturbo. People look like amateurs in this game because they limped. After all, you expect to play post flop with 5BB?

The shove was fine. It was a coinflip this time and you lost. If both the button and small blind called with random hands you'd win the pot 47% of the time. Nothing bad about missing out on the money.
 
JustDestined

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I agree with Scrover, get it in early and if you don't run into the PP limper you're in pretty good shape.In hindsight you coulda checked and saw the flop but you probably end up in the same spot post flop figuring the limpers weren't holding an ace and at worst you have 2 over cards if they did get a piece of the flop. That was one of the hardest things for me to grasp when I first started playing, the right play doesn't always win.
 
eidikos

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hyper turbo.good shove,you were commited.it was a coinflip that you lost.next time shove earlier in the tournament
 
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thatgreekdude

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you got it in as a flip, not much more you could of done
 
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hffjd2000

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KQ hand is a strong hand in a 3 handed game.

Sometimes you have to gamble and face that coinflips.
 
Karozi615

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KQ is definitely a little light to move in with 3 big blinds, AK its a definite shove


wait..back to the real world

MATHEMATICALLY YOU SHOULD BE SHOVING ANY 2 CARDS HERE REGARDLESS OF PREVIOUS ACTION
 
olliejjc16

olliejjc16

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yep this isnt even a question you should need to ask yourself, kq is an automatic get it all in and fistpump that you've got a strong hand at 3bbs especially with two limpers behind, like karozi says pretty much any 2 cards are good here with 3bb
 
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You guys have to note his opponents stacks of 6BB and 7BB, but even then KQ is a shove and forget situation.

The hand was a coinflip and you lost. You have to play coinflips from time to time if you want to be a successful player. It's gambling after all.
 
Martinez

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At least with KQ you had a decent hand at that stage of the game and was a good shove. That you ran up against a pocket pair was just unlucky amd as others have said, a coin floip.
I was in a torney earlier today with a maniac on the table. He was shoving allin with any two cards, this time with myself holding AQ suited (I know it's not the best hand to call with), I decided to call his bluff.
Sure enough, he showed 7-3 off suit and typically just lateley no matter what I have he spiked a 7 on the river.
That's Poker.
 
Staneff

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In this situation all-in is not a bad dicision even pre-flop, but this is always risky.
Looks like other player got lucky to win this with only his low pair. I could do the same anyway.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Solid decision to shove with that 3 handed - don't even think twice about it.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I didn't even read the responses because you have to play KQ like a monster 3 handed. pretty much regardless of stack sizes.

if you also happen to be short stacked, then it is even less of a consideration. of course you ship it with an above average hand in this spot. short stack has, in some ways the least to lose since if things continue on the same path, you'll just blind out before they do.

The more interesting question here would be if you're the guy with 6bb and the 3bb stack folds his button and now you've got KQ in the sb...but even here I think you gotta ship, even into the chip leader. Even with a short stack still in the game. KQ is just too strong 3 handed.
 
Poker Orifice

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The more interesting question here would be if you're the guy with 6bb and the 3bb stack folds his button and now you've got KQ in the sb...but even here I think you gotta ship, even into the chip leader. Even with a short stack still in the game. KQ is just too strong 3 handed.

imo, this ^ would be even 'less' interesting.
Of course you'd be shoving KQ in BvB after the ss has folded with 3bb's otb (BB is short too with 7bb's, it's not like he's going to call you down uber wide when there's another player with 3bb's who'll be on BB very next hand). Pretty sure you could be shoving reallyyyyyy wide there in that spot.
 
Poker Orifice

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I usually play live rather than online. Often end up at the final tables. Last night I was out in 3rd place. Only top 2 places paid in this tournament so I just missed out.

3 people left in, 2000/4000 blinds
BB [me] : (3xBB stack)
SB (about 7x BB stack)
Button (about 6x BB stack)

I am dealt QKs
Button and SB limp
I shove all in
Button calls with PP 55
SB folds

Cards come out A27J3

Now, with only 3 BB left and at final 3. Shove to double up seemed like a good call. When I was put out I put to down to variance. Question is, good shove or would a check to see flop and Buttons reaction been better?

Is this typical of how they've been playing? (limping in on shortstacks) ... seems crazy!

With all 3 stacks being sooooo short, AND with them limping in I think I'd consider just checking pre & then getting my last 2bb's in regardless of what comes on the flop. (even though they'll still be priced in to call... 'but' I have seen some reallyyyyyy bad players who can actually find a fold in spots like that).

I'm kinda wondering what the structure of this game was like & how many players entered, etc. What was there like 6 or 7 players? (maybe 8 players, 8,000chip starting stacks?)
What was the difference in payout between 1st & 2nd (% of prizepool wise). Was it like a typical 6-man sng like you'd find online? (ie. 70% for 1st, 30% for 2nd)
 
BadB420

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I think the shove is fine, it was a flip! Not a whole lot else you can do with almost no BB left so your better off getting it in while you can still get some value for it!!! The hand is actually really good compared to most hands people get when in this spot! Nothings worse than getting blinded down and having to shove with 2 cards that you know have no chance unless an incredible suck out happens! Good play it just didnt work out for you this time, shake it off and gl the next time!
 
Lotok

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Is this typical of how they've been playing? (limping in on shortstacks) ... seems crazy!

With all 3 stacks being sooooo short, AND with them limping in I think I'd consider just checking pre & then getting my last 2bb's in regardless of what comes on the flop. (even though they'll still be priced in to call... 'but' I have seen some reallyyyyyy bad players who can actually find a fold in spots like that).

I'm kinda wondering what the structure of this game was like & how many players entered, etc. What was there like 6 or 7 players? (maybe 8 players, 8,000chip starting stacks?)
What was the difference in payout between 1st & 2nd (% of prizepool wise). Was it like a typical 6-man sng like you'd find online? (ie. 70% for 1st, 30% for 2nd)

This was a live game, around 19 players starting with 4500. Top two places paid due to time, they agreed to split.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
 
Lotok

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Sounds like everyone agrees with the shove, just bad luck. The SB had played aggressive all night so his limp was encouraging. The guy on button is unpredictable

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
 
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There are no good options here.

Shoving is not great, because this is the bubble, we're one double up away from being in tied first place. If we shove, we ARE likely to get called in two places, we have basically no fold equity preflop.

Check/shoving flops also isn't a great option. Firstly we let multiple opponents see a flop (higher chacne they hit) but also, we may be forced to fold this postflop. It's rare, but lets say we check, and the Small blind decides he likes the flop and bets, we miss and fold right? that's not great, now we have a 2 BB stack. However i really like the thought PO, it's definitely a spot where i'd be looking for extra fold equity!, now if we're in the small blind, we could limp and then we would be first to act and it wouldn't be as bad, but in that situation, we have a BB on a random hand who would likely fold so, again the play isn't quite there.

The only other play is raising smaller. Now, this is where it gets cool. These two players are likely really bad, so they probably don't know stack sizes all that much, i would put in a raise to like 10k here(trying to make it seem as strong as possible, which isn't a stretch, because we are strong here) which leaves us 2k to shove the flop if called. Obviously we're never folding at all postflop, but lets say we raise to 8-10k, the button calls and small blind folds (likely because he folded to a shove right?) we let the 55 villian see a flop, then we shove on him, he might actually fold the best hand there because he's scared of the ace. It's unlikely that this play is going to work, but if theres a chance that these players fold, then in this situation it's worth giving it a go. Basically it's the same as shoving anyways...

The only other thing we can do is try and give a false read to the opponents, but since they are likely really bad, i think this will only make them curious/call more often. You could show a king and tell them you have KK, lol, is that even allowed in casinos?

Anyways, some alternative lines/thinking above. For me, i'd be more than willing to try something, because i'd think that they will both call here really often, and our equity plummets dramatically when multiway. So i like raising to 8k here and shoving any flop if one-both of them call me.

Think about this, if both of them plan on calling you preflop, lets say you make it 8k and then shove flop, even if you get one of them to fold, thats awesome for you!!
 
Lotok

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There are no good options here.

Shoving is not great, because this is the bubble, we're one double up away from being in tied first place. If we shove, we ARE likely to get called in two places, we have basically no fold equity preflop.

Check/shoving flops also isn't a great option. Firstly we let multiple opponents see a flop (higher chacne they hit) but also, we may be forced to fold this postflop. It's rare, but lets say we check, and the Small blind decides he likes the flop and bets, we miss and fold right? that's not great, now we have a 2 BB stack. However i really like the thought PO, it's definitely a spot where i'd be looking for extra fold equity!, now if we're in the small blind, we could limp and then we would be first to act and it wouldn't be as bad, but in that situation, we have a BB on a random hand who would likely fold so, again the play isn't quite there.

The only other play is raising smaller. Now, this is where it gets cool. These two players are likely really bad, so they probably don't know stack sizes all that much, i would put in a raise to like 10k here(trying to make it seem as strong as possible, which isn't a stretch, because we are strong here) which leaves us 2k to shove the flop if called. Obviously we're never folding at all postflop, but lets say we raise to 8-10k, the button calls and small blind folds (likely because he folded to a shove right?) we let the 55 villian see a flop, then we shove on him, he might actually fold the best hand there because he's scared of the ace. It's unlikely that this play is going to work, but if theres a chance that these players fold, then in this situation it's worth giving it a go. Basically it's the same as shoving anyways...

The only other thing we can do is try and give a false read to the opponents, but since they are likely really bad, i think this will only make them curious/call more often. You could show a king and tell them you have KK, lol, is that even allowed in casinos?

Anyways, some alternative lines/thinking above. For me, i'd be more than willing to try something, because i'd think that they will both call here really often, and our equity plummets dramatically when multiway. So i like raising to 8k here and shoving any flop if one-both of them call me.

Think about this, if both of them plan on calling you preflop, lets say you make it 8k and then shove flop, even if you get one of them to fold, thats awesome for you!!


I like your thinking. The smaller raise to let him not hit a 5 may have done the business. Although, if he calls and is 8-10k in, another 2k wont make him fold. Hes pretty loose and is the kinda guy that would see it through even if he had 22
 
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