Unstoppable force meets immovable object?

I would like some thoughts on this hand I saw. MTT; 2 out of the nine players are in it; the Button and the Big Blind, both with about equal stacks. 50/100 blinds

So, the button raises a standard 3x (300) after folded to. The SB folds. The BB re-raises (900) . Button flat calls the extra 600. It is now heads up. Pot is now 1850.

Flop is: 6h Ad Jh
BB bets out 616.
Button raises to 1850.
BB flat calls 1232 more. Pot now is 5548.
Turn is a brick; 3s
BB goes all in; 3010; pot is now 8558
Button calls 3010

BB shows QsQd - one pair, Queens
Button shows Kh5h - K high flush draw.

Button: I guess K-rag suited is not too bad to call a re-raise with if HU in position with it (K high is good against a single random hand, or so I have heard, especially suited and in position). It looked to me like the button had to be thinking the BB had an ace in his range, but the flop c-bet was pretty standard, thus the re-raise. After just a flat call by the BB, what should that have told the button? If holding a set, no flop bet - you would slow play to trap; if holding an AK (A hand the BB would re-raise with pre flop), top pair/top kicker, why not shove right there with that if you have it to prevent a draw? So it looked like an draw, flush or st8, An ace would be the re-raise range pre flop, but was not the action of such a hand on the flop after being raised. (or was it?) So it looked like a bluff maybe? Still, after a shove on the turn, the pot odds did not warrant a call for just a flush draw.

BB: It looked to me like the BB was trying to rep a hand that did not make sense; Trips or top pair. But when he was re-raised on the flop by the first raiser (who flat called his pre flop raise, saying ace-something range, I would think), facing a possible over-pair and a flush draw, why then shove the turn? The button did not have an ace, which surprised me. I thought maybe top pair and a flush draw. Would you have called that button raise on the flop facing a possible better pair and or a flush draw OOP?

So it looked to me like an loose/over aggressive button (immovable object) who maybe got pot committed and ran across a lose aggressive/calling station type (unstoppable force) of player.

What do you guys think?

lol im trying to get my head around this one.... trying to figure out stack sizes

6k stacks? and the blinds are 50 / 100

there are 60BB the BB played this mega badly
The story as is told in my eyes

Button looks at Q Q and raises it up
hes faced by a re raise and if hes making re raises with K 5s then the button isnt putting him on ace high
so if he hasnt got ace high hes probably ahead there
BB leads out like he should as the pre flop re raiser, and the button in position gets information he needs he re raises him, and watches him flat call
at this point the BB isnt even looking at a nut flush as the ace on the board is the wrong suit but by simply flatting on that kind of board hes prety much saying "im drawing" the turn is a brick and the Button is happy that he is ahead and goes all in"

if the opponent is going to chase his flush he should be making the button look at the strength of his own hand, button then has a tough decision to make regarding his own hand and can possibly lay it down,

kingmunchers said:

lol im trying to get my head around this one.... trying to figure out stack sizes

6k stacks? and the blinds are 50 / 100

there are 60BB the BB played this mega badly
The story as is told in my eyes

Button looks at Q Q and raises it up
hes faced by a re raise and if hes making re raises with K 5s then the button isnt putting him on ace high
so if he hasnt got ace high hes probably ahead there
BB leads out like he should as the pre flop re raiser, and the button in position gets information he needs he re raises him, and watches him flat call
at this point the BB isnt even looking at a nut flush as the ace on the board is the wrong suit but by simply flatting on that kind of board hes prety much saying "im drawing" the turn is a brick and the Button is happy that he is ahead and goes all in"

if the opponent is going to chase his flush he should be making the button look at the strength of his own hand, button then has a tough decision to make regarding his own hand and can possibly lay it down,

Click to expand...

Yes, sorry, I had to re create the amounts from memory and might have been off a bit; they did bet/raise standard sizes; initial raise 3x, re-raise 6x; C-bet 1/3, re-raise 3x that, or there abouts.

But the Button had the K-rag suited, the BB had the QQ. Still, I got you; The BB w QQ was thinking flush draw, but risked getting felted by a better top pair/flush draw that would have killed him. And the aggression sure said that was what the button range could well be. I just wanted to figure out if the BB was simply stubborn and over aggressive with QQ OOP no less, being risky in the face of a quite possible better pair with a flush draw. Why c-bet into the original raiser OOP on the flop and get told "I can beat a QQ or KK" and ignore that info, even if a semi-bluff? How on earth can you know it's a bluff or a flush draw for sure? Risk your whole MTT game on the chance your underpair to the board holds up?

You know, some people just will not fold any pair, even after calling bets on every street and even the river, on obvious boards with far better hands possible. I see this with 10-10, QQ and JJ a lot; boards with A,K, st8 and flushs, they still show it down at the river despite getting horrible pot odds to call up to that point on each street.

Are they simply playing like a cash game or just calling stations?

I think both players played the hand poorly. I like tossing K5 suited to a 3bet from the BB. Generally speaking, unless you have reads that player is willing to 3bet oop without a premium hand, K5 suited when not super stacked is a fold. When the flop comes out, and the button raises the cbet, it seems weighted to draws. If he had an Ace, why would he raise? He is never betting out FD's, and if he had a big Ace he would have 4bet gotten it in pre-flop I would assume. So when the button raises the cbet, it looks like a draw. Now on the flip side, I really do not like the lead jam after flatting the raise otf. I like a slip, and bluff catch. BB is never betting out better, and even FD's are not folding. It seems the BB has a feel that he is ahead, but I like a check/call ott. Pretty easy hand to disect, although both players played it poorly.

like i said, it depends on the opponents view of villain..... in my eyes, yes he could have the ace, but the fact he can do it purely with 8 outs in his own eyes, cus he cant be sure opponent doesnt have the ace either.... when villain gets re raised, thats the opponent saying "are you sure your beating me" then villain has to respond he has no fold equity, and right now he has 32% chance of hitting his flush, you could say the king is outs, but unless you know opponent has QQ you cant count the king as outs, when turn comes your looking at 16% chance, so you have more equity on the flop, and by shoving also gives oppoent chance to fold..... folding to 1 over is sometimes a bad move, your only going to hit 1 in 3 and so 1 over card for Q Q is always looking good unless opponent is a tight nit, if thats the case he would never be stuck in this dilemma and thats the point, the looser you are, the looser you can call, and you may get it completely wrong, but when you get it right you have doubled up and have a stack that can really dominate

grandpajesse said:

I think both players played the hand poorly. I like tossing K5 suited to a 3bet from the BB. Generally speaking, unless you have reads that player is willing to 3bet oop without a premium hand, K5 suited when not super stacked is a fold. When the flop comes out, and the button raises the cbet, it seems weighted to draws. If he had an Ace, why would he raise? He is never betting out FD's, and if he had a big Ace he would have 4bet gotten it in pre-flop I would assume. So when the button raises the cbet, it looks like a draw. Now on the flip side, I really do not like the lead jam after flatting the raise otf. I like a slip, and bluff catch. BB is never betting out better, and even FD's are not folding. It seems the BB has a feel that he is ahead, but I like a check/call ott. Pretty easy hand to disect, although both players played it poorly.

Click to expand...

Thanks, yes, both played it poorly.

It kinda looks like the BB read the button's play as a steal. Late position raisers in an un-opened pot increase the likelihood of stealing. BB probably knew he wasn't up against an over pair or even AK or button likely would have re-raised pre.

If BB's read was a steal attempt and they're right, then the board sorta favors him. It puts J 6 as the only hand that Button is likely to have better than their's. BB probably shoulda shipped on the flop but they may have been worried about a flush/straight draw board and wanted to see the turn while they still had a small amount of fold equity.

If the BB was correctly reading either steal or draw, his move here should have taken it down uncontested. It may even clear out a weak Ace if his read is wrong that way. I'm actually surprised the Button risked his tourney life on a one card draw to a flush with 30 BB's behind. It's a heck of a gamble but I've done worse myself.

hobonc said:

It kinda looks like the BB read the button's play as a steal. Late position raisers in an un-opened pot increase the likelihood of stealing. BB probably knew he wasn't up against an over pair or even AK or button likely would have re-raised pre.

If BB's read was a steal attempt and they're right, then the board sorta favors him. It puts J 6 as the only hand that Button is likely to have better than their's. BB probably shoulda shipped on the flop but they may have been worried about a flush/straight draw board and wanted to see the turn while they still had a small amount of fold equity.

If the BB was correctly reading either steal or draw, his move here should have taken it down uncontested. It may even clear out a weak Ace if his read is wrong that way. I'm actually surprised the Button risked his tourney life on a one card draw to a flush with 30 BB's behind. It's a heck of a gamble but I've done worse myself.

Click to expand...

I wonder would a better play have been:

A) Fold to the huge button reraise preflop.
Or
B) Flat call pre flop as done, then shove to the Cbet on the flop? I mean, if you plan on calling all in on the turn, why not just go all in on the flop then? Why wait till the turn? That might have gotten a fold, or maybe not; the button did re-raise the flop bet to no avail...

hobonc said:

It kinda looks like the BB read the button's play as a steal. Late position raisers in an un-opened pot increase the likelihood of stealing. BB probably knew he wasn't up against an over pair or even AK or button likely would have re-raised pre.

If BB's read was a steal attempt and they're right, then the board sorta favors him. It puts J 6 as the only hand that Button is likely to have better than their's. BB probably shoulda shipped on the flop but they may have been worried about a flush/straight draw board and wanted to see the turn while they still had a small amount of fold equity.

If the BB was correctly reading either steal or draw, his move here should have taken it down uncontested. It may even clear out a weak Ace if his read is wrong that way. I'm actually surprised the Button risked his tourney life on a one card draw to a flush with 30 BB's behind. It's a heck of a gamble but I've done worse myself.

Click to expand...

Michael Paler said:

I wonder would a better play have been:

A) Fold to the huge button reraise preflop.
Or
B) Flat call pre flop as done, then shove to the Cbet on the flop? I mean, if you plan on calling all in on the turn, why not just go all in on the flop then? Why wait till the turn? That might have gotten a fold, or maybe not; the button did re-raise the flop bet to no avail...

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The hand description says BB was the one who moved all in. He musta had a read on the Button if he called an all in.