Turbo SnG Players: How often do you ATC shove from the SB w/ 10 BBs or less?

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jaded848

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I ask this question because I'm wondering if it's a leak in my game if I'm not doing it enough. Like for any given SnG tournament, would you say that when you hit 10 BBs and action folds to you, you are shoving ATC a reasonable portion of the time? The reason I ask is I have no problem shoving a wide range (K5o, A3o) etc but I find it really hard to push the T2o, J6o, and even some Q hands. Obviously this depends on our read of the BB, but as the blinds go up even tight players can smell desperation, so I tend to fold out the Tx, Jx, and Qx type of hands.

Is it wrong to fold these hands at 10BBs? What about 7, 8, or 9 BBs?
 
TPC

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When your stack is that low the cards you are shoving don't matter. You are looking to shove in spots where there are few players to act behind you, tight players that fold to steals and in spots where you still have fold equity. If one or more of those conditions exist.... SHOVE!!!
 
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WiZZiM

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You always feel like your going to get called, but they will rarely call you wide enough to making shoving in these spots unprofitable. Like if they know were shoving 100% of hands, they will have to call with 35% to make it an unprofitable shove. K5s+ etc. However once we know they will call with such a range, we can fold out the bottom of our range, just all the junk stuff, like 92of, 72 of etc

Its opponant dependant, also the dynamic of the game as well, like have you shoved on the guy 5 times in a row etc. But generally speaking, blind on blind with 10bb's or less, its unexploitable to shove anytwo cards. Missing these shoves is as bad as calling when you shouldnt.
 
Collin Moshman

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jaded848 said:
I tend to fold out the Tx, Jx, and Qx type of hands.
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I think there's a real big difference between folding QX hands and J6 compared to hands on the bottom end of ATC like 42o. It depends a lot on the specific situation, but generally I'm shoving very wide in the SB for 10 BB, but not quite ATC ... particularly against regs who know to call wider and adjust to other regs shoving on them in the SB, as well as random loose players.

Against weak-tight opponents, or in situations where ATC is unexploitable like Wizzim mentions (such as when you're the big stack shoving into a mid-stack on the bubble), then by all means ATC!
 
OzExorcist

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In ordinary circumstances I'm shoving pretty much all of them. Certain situations or reads (loose big stack in the big blind and a super-short stack UTG, for example) would cause me to reconsider.
 
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Pokertron3000

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I think I would would rather be caught shoving a little too much than letting myself be blinded out which I can be prone to doing so I have the same problem as you in this situation. I think is probally one of my biggest leaks but its like a mental stumbling block because I always seem to remember the times I get called and beat so one thing I may do is start writing down my shoves when they are called and what with and if I win just as a little exersize in getting over the hump.
 
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10bbshuhbutnoM

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question's in the name

i have not found one place when google'ing that says how many m is profitable to shove unopened pot from small blind! yeah, i hear it all the time less than 10bbs = all in from small blind when first in pot.
so when blinds are 75 150 you have 1400 = shove right?
less than 10 bbs/ 6m
but when blinds are 125 250 with antes 25 i think / 600 chips for m and you have 2600 or 4m its not profitable? that's retarded. so 6m shove is profitable but 4m shove isnt? obviously something messed up here. all i want is an answer. nowhere on google talks bout it, and i have to register here just to say. i type in the key words and i get an entirely different topic. am i the only one who's thought about this?
also i think thinking in big blinds is wrong an ignorant lol. and before i get the whole "its not profitable for all opponents", i know that.



so 6m or less from small blind = shove? answers appreciated.
 
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WiZZiM

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10bbshuhbutnoM said:
i have not found one place when google'ing that says how many m is profitable to shove unopened pot from small blind! yeah, i hear it all the time less than 10bbs = all in from small blind when first in pot.
so when blinds are 75 150 you have 1400 = shove right?
less than 10 bbs/ 6m
but when blinds are 125 250 with antes 25 i think / 600 chips for m and you have 2600 or 4m its not profitable? that's retarded. so 6m shove is profitable but 4m shove isnt? obviously something messed up here. all i want is an answer. nowhere on google talks bout it, and i have to register here just to say. i type in the key words and i get an entirely different topic. am i the only one who's thought about this?
also i think thinking in big blinds is wrong an ignorant lol. and before i get the whole "its not profitable for all opponents", i know that.



so 6m or less from small blind = shove? answers appreciated.
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opponant dependant, as you mentioned. The first example with 1400 chips, it's very opponant and situation dependant, but your shoving fairly wide for the most part. Second example, your shoving very wide, i dont know where you got the idea that its not profitable to shove it in there.

And i fail to see why thinking in # of bb's is "ignorant". i always use BB, or Effective BB (when the antes in play).
 
TPC

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10bbshuhbutnoM said:
i have not found one place when google'ing that says how many m is profitable to shove unopened pot from small blind! yeah, i hear it all the time less than 10bbs = all in from small blind when first in pot.
so when blinds are 75 150 you have 1400 = shove right?
less than 10 bbs/ 6m
but when blinds are 125 250 with antes 25 i think / 600 chips for m and you have 2600 or 4m its not profitable? that's retarded. so 6m shove is profitable but 4m shove isnt? obviously something messed up here. all i want is an answer. nowhere on google talks bout it, and i have to register here just to say. i type in the key words and i get an entirely different topic. am i the only one who's thought about this?
also i think thinking in big blinds is wrong an ignorant lol. and before i get the whole "its not profitable for all opponents", i know that.



so 6m or less from small blind = shove? answers appreciated.
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You are ignoring fold equity. If you have an M of 4 and no FE due to your low M, then you can't shove ATC because you will be called a lot wider by stacks you don't have FE on.

Thinking of terms of BB's is standard for STT's. Thinking in terms of M is for MTT's. If you are on a final table of an MTT and everyone has about the same size stack, then your M doesn't really matter, you would be thinking about things in terms of BB's.
 
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10bbshuhbutnoM

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omg! ffs! typically i type a long msg and it says i've been logged out and wouldn't let me copy and paste my msg. i pressed paste and chat box thing went blank and that alex jones came up when i tried posting my reply lol.
pfff.
to KIZZiM, i got that idea from MI_turtle who said that less than 10bbs is a shove ATC from sb etc etc. so it made me think any more bbs isn't profitable. so wheres the line? what's the limit on what's profitable and what isn't? in terms of m only please or both thanks.
to be honest it really does my head in when i was already killing the games no joke before i even took any poker advice really. sure the odd thing or two that i hear on telly or whatever. all this poker talk tilts me badly. i was fine before i started taking it very seriously lol.
i may have to abandon pokerstars one of these days and go back to the sacred (LOL) ongame, coral. > where there's no antes and you don't have to make all these loose calls and shoves as much.
@ TPC yeah sorry i forgot to mention FE i knew that.
4m does have FE. if i have 2400 in sb (including my sb) and bb has4000 including his bb and its folded to me, if i shove (m=600 125 250 with 25 ante 9 handed) the pot will be 2875 and he has to call 2150, so that's clearly got fold equity right?
apparently i scored higher than 99.79% of all people taking the donkey test in the tournament section, so i don't know what i'm worried about. but there wasn't much tournament questions.
annoying that i cant think if i've retyped everything i wanted to say. that's all for now i guess. cheers.

is MI_turtle wrong and illegitimate right? youtube illegit 45 man part 6 of 8 you'll see him shoving 78os with over 10bbs/4-5m last two in 45 man. and illegitimate is a very good player indeed.

ps. tried quoting your comments to make it easy but failed miserably lol. apologies.

and a special thanks for your quick replies :D very much appreciated.
 
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WiZZiM

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10bbshuhbutnoM said:
omg! ffs! typically i type a long msg and it says i've been logged out and wouldn't let me copy and paste my msg. i pressed paste and chat box thing went blank and that alex jones came up when i tried posting my reply lol.
pfff.
to KIZZiM, i got that idea from MI_turtle who said that less than 10bbs is a shove ATC from sb etc etc. so it made me think any more bbs isn't profitable. so wheres the line? what's the limit on what's profitable and what isn't? in terms of m only please or both thanks.It's a pretty broad question, it depends on, opponants, game dynamic, the situation etc, in general, if you have 10bb's in the sb, you can shove really wide.I don't know what else to tell you without going into pages of detail.
to be honest it really does my head in when i was already killing the games no joke before i even took any poker advice really. sure the odd thing or two that i hear on telly or whatever. all this poker talk tilts me badly. i was fine before i started taking it very seriously lol.It can be hard to make a change for the better, especially so when you only have a little info to go by, watching random people play on youtube probably isn't great, id suggest buying books, or looking for a training site (i believe Nick Rainey has one up, focusing on MT sng's, Though it's 60/Month!) Can i ask how many games you have played total?
i may have to abandon pokerstars one of these days and go back to the sacred (LOL) ongame, coral. > where there's no antes and you don't have to make all these loose calls and shoves as much.
@ TPC yeah sorry i forgot to mention FE i knew that.
4m does have FE. if i have 2400 in sb (including my sb) and bb has4000 including his bb and its folded to me, if i shove (m=600 125 250 with 25 ante 9 handed) the pot will be 2875 and he has to call 2150, so that's clearly got fold equity right?
apparently i scored higher than 99.79% of all people taking the donkey test in the tournament section, so i don't know what i'm worried about. but there wasn't much tournament questions.Sorry, but whatever test that was, is not a prerequisite for being a good poker player...
annoying that i cant think if i've retyped everything i wanted to say. that's all for now i guess. cheers.

is MI_turtle wrong and illegitimate right? youtube illegit 45 man part 6 of 8 you'll see him shoving 78os with over 10bbs/4-5m last two in 45 man. and illegitimate is a very good player indeed.Ok i just had a quick look, and it was heads up, and he was shoving effective 11bb's or so, sure he might be shoving a 35bb stack, but his opponant only had 11-12 bb's so effectively thats all he is risking. he mentioned that the other guy was a good player, so shoving here seems fine, notice though, he folded the 23 off a few hands earlier when his opponant had less chips, so he's not shoving anytwo here, but 78 plays really well against his opponants calling range, and also since his opponant is a good player, he should have tons of FE too.

ps. tried quoting your comments to make it easy but failed miserably lol. apologies.

and a special thanks for your quick replies :D very much appreciated.
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ok so, ill give you the low down on Nick Rainey AKA "MI_turtle", hes mainly a MT sng player, were talking about 1 table SNG(well, i was, and so was the OP, even though it wasn't mentioned i don't think). So yes, shoving ATC with 10bb's or less is probably gonig to be profitable in the 45 mans and 180 mans. But it still depends on game situation, on the bubble with shortstacks in play, is one example where we dont want to be shoving anytwo.


Anyways, what i suggest is buying books, utilising the poker training sites that are out there, buying software like SNG Wizard (software that can help you determine if your shoves in tournaments are good/bad.) also posting hands in forums like this can be really helpful, post some shove/fold hands in the tournament HA section, and you can generally get some good feedback/discussion on them.

ok good luck, hope my babble helps in some way.
 
cardplayer52

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i reviewed my database as a whole BvB my 10BBs shoves get called 22% of the time. And of those time most of the hands that call me fit into the top 21% of hands. with a .25 edge that means i can easily ship over 60% of hands. but even if this is a +EV shove with ATC sometime it's more profitable to complete then min bet(or just over min as to look like your stronger because you had to type the amount) any flop. i find this a good play when the BB has the about the same amount of chips as me(my closest competitor).

--also if this is the bubble this can change your shoving ranges a ton. another thing to consisder is if the BB got you covered and how many shorter stacks are at the table.
 
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WiZZiM

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It's a good play when were a bit deeper, like the 9-20bb range... but i agree it's a great play, and if you work it out, its far superior to raising.. as we risk less, and it works more often i find..
 
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10bbshuhbutnoM

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@ WIZZiM, i've played like 14000 tournaments profitably. But along the way i've obviously switched certain plays and got better as a player etc.

On a different topic, i've noticed that there's a fine line between being a donk and a shark. eg. reraising top pair weak kicker to a first position bet on flop in a 3 way limped pot whilst being 2nd to act, (sure the first position bettor was a donk) but i don't see that reraise doing too well in the long run against a 1st pos bettor, especially in a tournament where u may fold to a reraise.But this is what i see people doing with great stats.

It's like the saying goes, the more you think the worse you play.
 
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WiZZiM

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10bbshuhbutnoM said:
@ WIZZiM, i've played like 14000 tournaments profitably. But along the way i've obviously switched certain plays and got better as a player etc.

On a different topic, i've noticed that there's a fine line between being a donk and a shark. eg. reraising top pair weak kicker to a first position bet on flop in a 3 way limped pot whilst being 2nd to act, (sure the first position bettor was a donk) but i don't see that reraise doing too well in the long run against a 1st pos bettor, especially in a tournament where u may fold to a reraise.But this is what i see people doing with great stats.

It's like the saying goes, the more you think the worse you play.
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Ahh, ok, just making sure you had a decent sample size...

And yeah, its probably got soemthing to do with not reviewing games, or reviewing games badly, leaks develop, get overlooked etc. which is why its great to have someone to review hands for you...
 
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