My turbo game in a nutshell...cbetting leak? Should I play more hands?

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jaded848

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My early stage turbo SnG strategy is extremely basic. I limp with most pairs except when UTG or UTG+1. I don't play suited connectors unless there are at least 3-4 limpers and I am in late position. I fold AJ in early position, even if suited, and I fold it in any position if there is a raise in front. With AQ, I raise with it in early position if suited, if not suited I fold it UTG and UTG+1 but raise with it in every other position. I also fold AQ if there is a raise in front. AK I raise in all positions, suited or unsuited, and if there is a raise in front I either re-raise or just jam, depending on stacks and position. With all premium pairs I raise 3x in any position.

Now for the post flop play. This especially applies to the AJ, AQ, and AK hands. Let's say I open preflop for 3x with any one of these hands. Usually I get at least one caller, and let's say flop comes 2 3 8 or something dry like that. I cbet these flops pretty much 100% of the time, and I THINK it's +EV in the long run, but every now and then I get looked up by a check-raise or a player shoving over me, and I'm forced to fold the hand. If the blinds were at 25/50, thats 150 preflop and 200 postflop. If the blinds are 30/60 or 40/80, it's obviously more. My point is that I'm usually left with about 900-1000 chips and my big question is this: is this standard or is it a leak? Should I not be cbetting these flops? Generally the ONLY flops I don't cbet are wet ones like 6 7 8 or J T 3 with 2 of a suit on the board, or if two broadway cards hit. Also, I want to mention that since this is usually early on in the SnG, I don't have much in terms of reads.

Once the blinds hit 50/100, it's generally shove/fold, and that's my game in a nutshell :) Oh, I should also mention that I try to steal blinds when I can, most often by using the stop/go method of completing/firing on any flop.

Should I be playing more hands in the early stages? This post is partly a product of me having just played 4 tables and bubbling in every single one of them :mad: and in each one I entered the bubble as the short stack...I'm wondering if I should be playing more hands in an attempt to get my stack up for the bubble?
 
T

The_Pup

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Not a bad strategy at all, Jade. Because this style if fairly risk averse you will tend to find yourself shortstacked on the bubble more often than more aggressive styles - they are either bigger stacked or out. Being shortstacked on the bubble you will find yourself having to risk your tourney to advance against someone who can afford to lose, say, 1000 chips.

The trouble with having a conservative style in the early stages is that you are fairly easy to read and the c-bet becomes a problem. If people reckon you are only playing premiums then you are easy to bluff off a 679 flop with a check-raise and if you have AKo to a ATT or AKT you often win small or lose big.

It might be worth thinking about mixing it up just a little and exploiting your tight image. Open raise the odd random hand here or there with the intention of c-betting assuming one caller. The idea is that if the flop matches the kind of hand the villain thinks you play you can get them to fold, if it really does match your hand they will see it as a c-bet and you can play back at them with a disguised monster, and if you miss and they get lively then you can get out easily.

Take an 'easy fold hand' like 96o. If the flop comes a dream 966 you are going to get action from all sorts of hands, but if you hold AKo to a AKK flop you often find the hand dies there. But swap those hands round: a c-bet to a AKK flop with 96 will often take the pot there, if it doesn't you know you can fold. But a c-bet with AK to a 966 flop will get the same action as when you had 96 but now you don't want it. You are basically trying to execute a bluff that is not convincing.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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What level are you playing at? $2, $6, $11, higher?

Particularly at the lower levels I don't think there's a great deal of merit to balancing your c-bet range by including even more bluffs than you already are. You just won't win enough to make it worthwhile, especially since in the early stages we're more concerned with staying alive rather than chip accumulation.

I'd be more inclined to "balance" by only c-betting some of the time, or more often against opponents that I know are weak. C-betting 100% of the time could become exploitable at higher levels too because players will recognise that more often than not you'll have a hand that can't continue when they shove over you. Be less inclined to c-bet multi-way too because there's a much lesser chance you'll get the folds you're looking for.

I'm not sure I'd be that worried about having such a big distinction between wet and dry boards either. Unless you've got a read like a certain villain loves to play suited connectors or sooted aces then I think in a SnG (especially a turbo) ranges tend to feature a lot more hands that either have showdown value (pocket pairs) or have the potential to make big pairs (big aces, some will play you with KQ/KJ type hands). I figure your opponents will be worried about your draws just as much as you should be worried about theirs.

WiZZiM and others who know what the hell they're talking about will probably waltz in now and prove me wrong on everything I've just said, but those are my thoughts :p
 
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WiZZiM

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My early stage turbo SnG strategy is extremely basic. I limp with most pairs except when UTG or UTG+1.It's better to limp pairs in UTG and UTG+1 as there are more players to act behind, the purpose of limping these pairs is to set mine, so the more players in the pot, the better, as you have a much better chance of getting paid off when you hit your set. I don't play suited connectors unless there are at least 3-4 limpers and I am in late position.good. I fold AJ in early position, even if suited, and I fold it in any position if there is a raise in front.Seems fine, you can probably open limp with it in EP if it's suited. folding is fine though. With AQ, I raise with it in early position if suited, if not suited I fold it UTG and UTG+1 but raise with it in every other position.Seems ok, i tend to raise with AQoff and limp with AQ suited, depends what stake im playing though, lower stakes ill do like above, and higher stakes ill tend to just fold it. I also fold AQ if there is a raise in front.Good. you can call behind in position with it, vs a weak/bad, spewy player. AK I raise in all positions, suited or unsuited, and if there is a raise in front I either re-raise or just jamgood, depending on opponant, against good tight ones, calling behind is standard., depending on stacks and position. With all premium pairs I raise 3x in any position.Seems ok, at 10/20 i generally 4x it. As i want to help build the pot, and dont want too many loose calls.

Now for the post flop play. This especially applies to the AJ, AQ, and AK hands. Let's say I open preflop for 3x with any one of these hands. Usually I get at least one caller, and let's say flop comes 2 3 8 or something dry like that. I cbet these flops pretty much 100% of the time, and I THINK it's +EV in the long run, but every now and then I get looked up by a check-raise or a player shoving over me, and I'm forced to fold the hand.Vs one opponant im generally cbetting 100% of flops, if i get two callers, and i dont hit, im usually checking it. unless the board is really dry like a 882 flop, where my AK should be the best hand a high % If the blinds were at 25/50, thats 150 preflop and 200 postflop. If the blinds are 30/60 or 40/80, it's obviously more. My point is that I'm usually left with about 900-1000 chips and my big question is this: is this standard or is it a leak? Should I not be cbetting these flops?You should be cbetting this board, your AJ+ hands are still usually the best hand, so we don't want to check, we want to bet to protect our Ace high. Generally the ONLY flops I don't cbet are wet ones like 6 7 8 or J T 3 with 2 of a suit on the board, or if two broadway cards hit. It depends on opponant, what type of cards do they call with but with one opponant, you should be cbetting these flops, they arn't super wet, especially the 768 is unlikeky to hit ranges, as most players at your stake will be playing higher cards QJ etc Also, I want to mention that since this is usually early on in the SnG, I don't have much in terms of reads.

Once the blinds hit 50/100, it's generally shove/fold, and that's my game in a nutshell :) Oh, I should also mention that I try to steal blinds when I can, most often by using the stop/go method of completing/firing on any flop.Yep, seems fine, i usually raise the tight players, and limp/fire the looser ones, i do fold out the absulute junk though.

Should I be playing more hands in the early stages? This post is partly a product of me having just played 4 tables and bubbling in every single one of them :mad: and in each one I entered the bubble as the short stack...I'm wondering if I should be playing more hands in an attempt to get my stack up for the bubble?Well, playing more hands early is kind of counter-prductive, sure you may pick up a few extra chips, but were also getting called looser on or near the bubble, when were into push/fold mode. Also, if you aspire to mass multitable, it isn't a good idea, and if you have problems playing postflop, it isn't a good idea to widen your range. Bubbling that much is going to happen, hell i just played a set of 15 earlier and bubbled in ~ 7 of them, as you know, 4 games is nothing, but it could have something to do with not shoving wide enough in late stages (which i think we covered when i reviewed your HH)

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WiZZiM

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Not a bad strategy at all, Jade. Because this style if fairly risk averse you will tend to find yourself shortstacked on the bubble more often than more aggressive styles - they are either bigger stacked or out. Being shortstacked on the bubble you will find yourself having to risk your tourney to advance against someone who can afford to lose, say, 1000 chips.in the long run, the "risk adverse" player will make a lot more money, cash in more sng's than an aggressive style early on.

The trouble with having a conservative style in the early stages is that you are fairly easy to read and the c-bet becomes a problem. If people reckon you are only playing premiums then you are easy to bluff off a 679 flop with a check-raise and if you have AKo to a ATT or AKT you often win small or lose big.
Not so much of a problem really.. all good players will be bluffed, but it simply wont happen often enough for it to be a problem, it will still be hard for players to check raise with absoulte air, especially as we easily could have JJ+ sure we may not get paid too often on a AAK board or whatever, but it does still happen regularly vs fish, especially at low levels.
It might be worth thinking about mixing it up just a little and exploiting your tight image. Open raise the odd random hand here or there with the intention of c-betting assuming one caller. The idea is that if the flop matches the kind of hand the villain thinks you play you can get them to fold, if it really does match your hand they will see it as a c-bet and you can play back at them with a disguised monster, and if you miss and they get lively then you can get out easily.While im not agaisnt this idea, there is little point, especaially in low stakes where we jsut dont play against the same players often enough, and the players are generally bad, so mixing up your play is a wasted effort. most of these guys arnt thinking, might be ok to do this sort of thing a $30+ level buy ins, where you play a lot of the same players, mixing it up is a good thing, here at buy ins below $20 its pretty much a waste of time.

Take an 'easy fold hand' like 96o. If the flop comes a dream 966 you are going to get action from all sorts of hands, but if you hold AKo to a AKK flop you often find the hand dies there. But swap those hands round: a c-bet to a AKK flop with 96 will often take the pot there, if it doesn't you know you can fold. But a c-bet with AK to a 966 flop will get the same action as when you had 96 but now you don't want it. You are basically trying to execute a bluff that is not convincing.no comment.

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