Tourney review.

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davidhoyle107

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I just played a freezeout at bet online. I'm in position, loose player raises 2xbb. I call with j8. One other in pot. Flop comes 8 2 4, no flush draw. Raised raises half pot. At this point, I think about his actions. I know he didn't raise with a 8 postflop. I assume he may have pocket 10+, but it's a small raise, so I thought I'd call. Turn comes, a 10. He bets 1/4 pot, about the same as before. I start thinking he had over cards like ak, an, Broadway's, etc. I call. River comes a king. He goes all in. I know he hit king. He goes all in, but my stacks to small to fold. Should I of 3 bet the turn? Should I of not gotten committed? Maybe 3 bet the flop? I put him on a exact range. I think I should of just folded here. It of been better than calling. To be honest I committed to a tourney that was too small for me to be willing to play out. I hate playing 4+ hours at micro games. I view it as a waste. Probably made me not care enough to make the right decision.
 
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ph_il

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Working backwards, you called ~10 BBs from preflop to turn, then said you were too committed to fold to a river bet. So, I estimate you probably had ~15 or less BBs to start with.

Why are you calling a raise with J8s and only ~15 BBs?

Is your viewing microstakes as a waste an excuse for playing poorly?
 
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davidhoyle107

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Working backwards, you called ~10 BBs from preflop to turn, then said you were too committed to fold to a river bet. So, I estimate you probably had ~15 or less BBs to start with.

Why are you calling a raise with J8s and only ~15 BBs?

Is your viewing microstakes as a waste an excuse for playing poorly?

In short, yes. I can make way more money working 4 hours. So it's becoming annoying. Even when I do play properly, after about 2 hours I'm just done. I'm retrospect, I wasn't pot committed. It was early on and I'd of just been somewhat shortstacked. If it been a big tourney with some investment, I'd of folded. I know it. But I just am finding it harder and harder to justify the time reward of small tourneys. In another post, I stated that was cause I have school and work. I was considering reducing the number of tourneys I play to ONE a week, but raise the stakes. That way even though I'd face a tougher crowd, the higher reward would incite me to commit. Everyone basically called me a noob, but it's not because of my skill I'm not moving up grinding. It's cause I just don't care at that level to even be in the game.
 
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davidhoyle107

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In short, yes. I can make way more money working 4 hours. So it's becoming annoying. Even when I do play properly, after about 2 hours I'm just done. I'm retrospect, I wasn't pot committed. It was early on and I'd of just been somewhat shortstacked. If it been a big tourney with some investment, I'd of folded. I know it. But I just am finding it harder and harder to justify the time reward of small tourneys. In another post, I stated that was cause I have school and work. I was considering reducing the number of tourneys I play to ONE a week, but raise the stakes. That way even though I'd face a tougher crowd, the higher reward would incite me to commit. Everyone basically called me a noob, but it's not because of my skill I'm not moving up grinding. It's cause I just don't care at that level to even be in the game.

It was a 1500 chip game. I called with 1000 chips and a 1000 sized pot. So no, I wasn't committed at the river. That was my mistake for saying I was.
 
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ph_il

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In short, yes. I can make way more money working 4 hours. So it's becoming annoying. Even when I do play properly, after about 2 hours I'm just done. I'm retrospect, I wasn't pot committed. It was early on and I'd of just been somewhat shortstacked. If it been a big tourney with some investment, I'd of folded. I know it. But I just am finding it harder and harder to justify the time reward of small tourneys. In another post, I stated that was cause I have school and work. I was considering reducing the number of tourneys I play to ONE a week, but raise the stakes. That way even though I'd face a tougher crowd, the higher reward would incite me to commit. Everyone basically called me a noob, but it's not because of my skill I'm not moving up grinding. It's cause I just don't care at that level to even be in the game.
What are your current stakes?

It's true that playing bigger stakes = bigger rewards if you do well, but you have to be able to beat those stakes in order to show profit. Especially if you continue to play those stakes.

Volume plays a huge role in MTTs as well, at all stakes. For one, you don't get a sense of how you're doing overall until you've played enough. I think at minimum, 500 MTTs is a good baseline for how you're actually doing. Obviously, the more MTTs, the more accurate the results. At 1 MTT/WK, it's going to take a while to reach that. Especially since you're talking about moving up and grinding MTTs, it's going to be really hard to get an idea of how well you're doing with only 52 MTTs/YR.

To be honest, 52 MTTs/YR is nothing. I've gone on 40+ game downswings before in just weeks of playing. Not saying you'll go on as bad of a downswing, but variance does play into MTTs and volume is the only way to really get out them. So, you have to factor in that. Take this for example: lets you and I are grinding MTTs, I play 5 MTTs/day, you play 1 MTT/WK. We both go on 10 MTT downswings (that's not bad at all). Given our volume, I'm looking at a 2 day downswing, but you're looking at a 10 week downswing given how often you play.

Honestly, 1 MTT/WK isn't even worth your time if you're looking to grind it out and move up in stakes. If increasing the volume isn't an option, maybe switch to SNGs. They still have the MTT feel, but you get get more volume in. At ~1 hour/game, you can play ~4 in the time it takes to play a 4 hour MTT. Another option is cash games since you can end whenever you want, allowing you to get in more volume by playing in free time than you would having to follow an MTT schedule.
 
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davidhoyle107

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Are your numbers correct?

Thanks for the thought out response. I see your point. It take 8 years to show a profit. Sngs aren't a bad idea either. I've thought about just saving the 40 a month for a year and then playing 25 no limit cash games. The problem with cash at 40 or 50 dollars is you, like you said, have to account for variance. I've played micro stakes in a winning manner, but .02/.05 games only offer a win rate of 10/bb 10pbb, or at a 6 max. About 50 cents a hour per table. That's like a buck a hour. Even sngs would be small winnings. I may save up a bankroll then play cash games. I've played .25 games, against better bankroll management practices, and the comps not bad. I could easily make 5 or 6 a hour at at 10bb rate several tables.
 
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ph_il

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Thanks for the thought out response. I see your point. It take 8 years to show a profit. Sngs aren't a bad idea either. I've thought about just saving the 40 a month for a year and then playing 25 no limit cash games. The problem with cash at 40 or 50 dollars is you, like you said, have to account for variance. I've played micro stakes in a winning manner, but .02/.05 games only offer a win rate of 10/bb 10pbb, or at a 6 max. About 50 cents a hour per table. That's like a buck a hour. Even sngs would be small winnings. I may save up a bankroll then play cash games. I've played .25 games, against better bankroll management practices, and the comps not bad. I could easily make 5 or 6 a hour at at 10bb rate several tables.
Not necessarily to make a profit, but to show actual overall results in a large enough sample. You could easily bink the 1st MTT, then only have a handful of min cashes in the next 499 MTTs.

At $40/month, just save up for 3 months and start at 5NL with a $120 BR. 24 buy-ins is enough to start at 5nl and you can pad that BR with an extra $40 a month, allowing you to move up to 10nl a little faster if you're beating 5nl. You'll always have that cushion of being able to move up/down if needed.

If you've played and done well at .25nl, then you should easily move up through the 10nl stakes as well. Obviously, you can save up and start with 25nl, but if you're following decent BRM, you need at least 30 buy-ins or $750. At $40, thats going to take a while. The combination of building from 5nl + padding each month will get you there faster as a winning player. Also, look into rakeback if can get it.
 
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davidhoyle107

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Not necessarily to make a profit, but to show actual overall results in a large enough sample. You could easily bink the 1st MTT, then only have a handful of min cashes in the next 499 MTTs.

At $40/month, just save up for 3 months and start at 5NL with a $120 BR. 24 buy-ins is enough to start at 5nl and you can pad that BR with an extra $40 a month, allowing you to move up to 10nl a little faster if you're beating 5nl. You'll always have that cushion of being able to move up/down if needed.

If you've played and done well at .25nl, then you should easily move up through the 10nl stakes as well. Obviously, you can save up and start with 25nl, but if you're following decent BRM, you need at least 30 buy-ins or $750. At $40, thats going to take a while. The combination of building from 5nl + padding each month will get you there faster as a winning player. Also, look into rakeback if can get it.


This is pretty solid. I'm done with school for the semester starting end of fall. That'll be about 2 months. I may save 40 a month for 2 months which as of right not would put me at 110. Then after school start playing 5nl not to pad, but get a baseline. If I play solid before spring semester, I'll add another 40 or 80 in between school, which puts me near the 240 needed to move to 10 nl assuming I've not found/plugged any major leaks in my 5 nl by that time. A month or 2 will be enough time to find said leaks. This is super helpful advice.
 
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