Tournament strategy with flips

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ymalemodels

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Was in the money in a tournament with 35 BB, a bit above average so doing pretty well.
Had queens preflop and knew that the raiser would be getting it in.
Result was a lost flip against AK.

Is this scenario an ICM disaster? Double up to get better cash or essentially min cash. I always aim for FT but am wondering if I should go the low variance route and play my hands post flop or are queens just too damn good to fold?
 
wildyetty

wildyetty

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I struggle with that all the time, and have come to the conclusion to fold to a jam if i have the villian on AK AQ AJ. 35 bbs deep is set mining territory and would rather play post flop with them. (assuming we have similar stacks) any 1 10 bbs or less im calling 10 10 or better most times.
 
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subdylzep

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In this scenario its always the amount of blinds that makes the difference. Sometimes you can argue how big the rest of the field is, but at 35 BBs i dont believe its a good idea to risk an all in flip here. If you were somewhere under 15BBs i think you could easily push it and not worry here, but with 35 blinds you have plenty of time to find yourself in another situation where you are 50 50 or at the very worst 60 40. Chances are you'll actually find yourself in a 4-1 or 5-1 favorite if you take the time and actually want to get it in preflop, but with this amount of blinds you dont need to risk your stack preflop at all. Take your time and if you are a good poker player you'll be able to find your situations and weaknesses within the others play and easily gain some chips. Find some all in situations against some smaller stacks and look to gain chips through them via a 60 40 flip or a 50 50 flip. Then if you find yourself in a situation where you are around 15BBs or less get it in preflop. Personally towards the end of tournaments ive easily survived with 5BBs left when blinds are very big and everyone is sitting with 15-30 BBs max, but thats generally really late in the tournament and usually only online. If its live it makes a bit of a difference because generally there will be a bigger divide and a larger lead so somewhere between 10-15 Blinds make a better move. But anyways yeah i wouldnt move so early with the Qs anymore, Furthermore i'll throw this out there. If you can, with big pairs preflop (ie 10s - Ks) Get a big raise in preflop, try not to risk more than 30% your stack and see if you can them to the flop that way, you can generally easily assess the situation and see if you are still ahead after the flop, that way you dont risk them hitting an AK or AQ w 5 cards but only 3. This usually works better for me. Good luck in future tournaments.
 
MattRyder

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I'd also rather take the more conventional route pre-flop - doesn't really matter whether you're holding QQ or 22, your shove is probably only getting called by AK, AA or KK, which either puts you behind or in a coin flip situation. A non-AK flop puts you in the driver's seat. Although the maniacs of the world may (and do) still call a big c-bet or even shove at that point, the more conservative maniacs will at least give it a bit more thought than they would pre-flop.

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rule72

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Very short on details so I'm assuming late tourney (in the money) and you raised some amount expecting a bigger stack to over shove behind you which you then called all-in?????

When I'm better than average stack late tourney about the only hand I would call all-in with is AA, maybe KK if the raiser tends to be loose. At least then it's not a flip against A-K.

The play I prefer based on my assumptions above is raise to 2.5 bb and fold to a shove that's more than third of my stack.
 
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Reelmookey

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i would have done the same with being so late in the tourny and you cashing anyways i play any pocket pair not quite all in on less than 9's but all in on anything higher
 
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Niksic007

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The optimal strategy is to take riskier actions in early/middle stages and be conservative in the late stages, because early stage players are on average worse players, and also because of the bubble. So "keeping a big stack going" is really bad strategy - if you have a big stack, you want to use solid +EV actions to get a huge stack when you have the opportunity to.
 
Pbland

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QQ is always a tough one. It sounds like you hand some info on the person raising, meaning you know he was aggressive and was getting his chips in. What I'm not sure is did he raise all-in pre-flop? Before you had a chance to bet or did he go all-in after you raised? With 35BB, I would put him on some kind of ace, so would first love to see the flop before going all-in. If he went all-in before your turn, then the money won would effect my decision. To win the big tourneys, you're always going to need to win a coin flip or 2.
 
Jim Brown

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A little more information would help, but I'm pretty much never folding QQ preflop 35BB deep
 
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Dan Lucas

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I think you might have run into a cooler, but with 35bb you are not in an all-in or fold situation. Play the hand normally with a raise and then evaluate if someone shoves. The stack size of the shoving player will give you some idea of the strength of their hand. The smaller the stack, the wider the range. And if you just get called instead of re-raised, you might win on the flop if A or K doesn't flop, whivh is the most likely scenario. And if they do flop, you van fold and still have a decent stack behind.
 
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PKRNRS

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Was in the money in a tournament with 35 BB, a bit above average so doing pretty well.
Had queens preflop and knew that the raiser would be getting it in.
Result was a lost flip against AK.

Is this scenario an ICM disaster? Double up to get better cash or essentially min cash. I always aim for FT but am wondering if I should go the low variance route and play my hands post flop or are queens just too damn good to fold?

You stated that you know the raiser is going to get it in so we're assuming that he was short stacked. I would have played this normally with a pot size raise depending on stacks and play style. Like those stating above I wouldn't fold queens late in a tournament if it means I had a chance to take someone out.
 
sakenby

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Now you describe just one situation...I'm sure that if you,with the same map, just played 10 hands,the other 9 won.Now think about whether you want with this map play aggressive.Of course Yes!!!
 
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matiusaa

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You had 35bb, assuming 35bb as effective stack, All in preflop with QQ is a must, unless you have very solid reads.
 
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PKRNRS

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I also want to add that one has to win coin flips at some point in any tournament to win.
 
SuzdalDEcor

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If you doing 4bet and get all-in, then we hope to win a coin with our queens. If we get 4bet, then it is better to fold, because you have a normal stack to take a better situation.
 
SuzdalDEcor

SuzdalDEcor

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I think you might have run into a cooler, but with 35bb you are not in an all-in or fold situation. Play the hand normally with a raise and then evaluate if someone shoves. The stack size of the shoving player will give you some idea of the strength of their hand. The smaller the stack, the wider the range. And if you just get called instead of re-raised, you might win on the flop if A or K doesn't flop, whivh is the most likely scenario. And if they do flop, you van fold and still have a decent stack behind.

Wow one good comment!!! I agree with it!
 
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