Tournament Help

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AceZWylD

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I have been playing a lot of MTT's lately. I open up by playing a pretty tight game, and betting aggressively when appropriate. It has paid off for me, because I often finish in the money.

My problem is that by playing tight, I often don't have an adequate chip stack once the blinds increase towards the end, and I end up having to go all in with my blind because if not I will be totally crippled.

Can anyone give me advice that could possibly help me finish in the top 10, rather than just in the money.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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By far the best time to change your play and become more aggressive is on the bubble.

Your brief history is indicative of a player who plays very tightly on the bubble. This is all well and good, but you also have to consider that at least 80% of the field are playing the bubble in exactly the same way, and are just looking to sneak into the money.

By opening up and stealing more in bubble situations you will probably cash less, but when you do get into the money you will more often have a larger stack, and thus more room for maneuver (and you will invariably place higher on average and thus make more money as a result).
 
Coryan

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I have also had the problem of getting into the money with a less than adequate stack to make the big bucks. I have finished in the money in 17% of the 82 MTT (100 or more players) that I have entered. I have only finished really strong in three of the tournaments (1st, 6th and 9th).

What I notice are two big factors in those three tournaments: 1) I got really lucky at the right times, and 2) I gave myself the chance to get lucky. Doing well in MTTs requires skill AND luck. I found that, as AceZWyID has said, a great time to gather chips is when players tighten up before the bubble. I would make more semi-bluffs at this time...playing my draws fairly strong. If someone plays back at me...I fold. But in those tournaments where I finished well, I often hit my draw or took down a pot with the bluff. Once in the money, I also decide that I am willing to get involved in pots with big chip stacks. Don't let the stacks intimidate you. Play your pocket pairs for set value and look for a chance to push back when you believe a big stack is just using intimidation without a great hand.

I am not an MTT expert...and like I said, I often find myself with the same problem. But reviewing my few successes has taught me something...give yourself a chance to get lucky. That doesn't mean play super-loose or go maniac, just look for ways to hit big hands and be willing to challenge the players who can pay you off. BTW, I also love to pick up a short stack's chips when I can be the only caller with a hand that I think will win it.

Oh, one more thing, I think AceZWyID made a really good point about being willing to finish out of the money a little more often in order to be aggressive and give yourself the chance at reaching the final table and making the big bucks.

IMHO,

CORYAN
 
ChuckTs

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just as Dorkus said, bubble play is important - you need to loosen up and steal blinds with marginal hands.
Also one thing that is essential to placing high in MTTs is switching gears. By that i mean that basically you should start off playing very tight up until the break and then start to loosen your starting hands requirements as the tournament progresses. It sounds to me that you know how to switch gears, but don't do it early enough. You also have to be very VERY aggressive when you have a hand. You don't want to sneak into the money and get two times your buyin back. It's just not worth your time. You want 1st place and only 1st place. That's where the real payoff is.
 
Arjonius

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There are different theories of how to play MTTs. Scott Fishman, for example, advocates playing aggressively early on with about a quarter of the starting stack. If you get ahead, keep going, and if you lose it, switch to tight aggressive. Gavin Smith likes to play a lot of pots, especially in position, so he plays a loose, flop or drop type of game. Obviously, both these styles can win, and they're just two examples.
 
Coryan

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Arjonius said:
There are different theories of how to play MTTs. Scott Fishman, for example, advocates playing aggressively early on with about a quarter of the starting stack. If you get ahead, keep going, and if you lose it, switch to tight aggressive. Gavin Smith likes to play a lot of pots, especially in position, so he plays a loose, flop or drop type of game. Obviously, both these styles can win, and they're just two examples.

Very good point. I think the idea is that early in the tournament you should avoid putting a lot of chips at risk on risky hands. So Fischman will gamble off a fourth of his stack and Smith will play moderate hands from late position...but neither puts their tournament on the line w/ AJ on a flop of A-x-x without a great read on their opponent (or a very short stack that forces them to gamble).

Great post and good point about the multiple ways to play a tournament.

CORYAN
 
Ch4nc3

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I've just started to get into tournement play more myself and what I find that works for me, at least in the smaller buy-in tournements, is to pay attention to the other players and make smart aggressive moves towards them when believe you have the better hand.

A lot of times, very loose/aggressive players will bet big on a second hand cards. If you pay attention to how these players play and their betting patterns and what hands they have, when you get an opportunty to see them, you have a pretty good idea what they are holding if it ever comes to a showdown.

For instance, If I am holding A,J and the flop comes out A,x,x and I am in late position, I see what my opponent is going to do. More often than not, he will raise indicating to me that he has an Ace, but my observation of him in previous hands indicate that he will usually do that on any A,x hand. so I will go over the top and sometimes they will go all in with me with an A,4 or something like that. There is always the risk of them sucking out, but the chances are your J will hold up to his 4.

It's just smart betting and knowing when to pick your battles and whom to pick them with. If I'm in middle position and I have the A,J or lower I will fold the hand if someone goes all in because there are players after me that may have a dominant hand.
 
Ch4nc3

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One more thing. If you go to battle with someone and they do end up sucking out on you, if you still have chips left, Get tight again, very tight. Calculate how many blinds your chip stack can handle and wait for a good hand and for an opportunity to go one-on-one with someone. I have been in the short stack and have waiting out the hands until I am in a position to make a move. Another important factor is the number of players at the table. Less players = more hands should be played. If you are moved to another table tighten up again, observe the table. See what the dynamics are like. You may have to adjust your play.

From experience, NEVER go all in on the first hand of a table. You have no idea what type of players you are dealing with. Had an experience just this afternoon where a player with a 9, 4 took out two players, one with A,J and the other with K,K on the first hand. I have no idea why he did that with 9,4 but he got lucky.

Anyway, good luck with your tournament play.

Jim
 
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Dingodaddy23

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the only hand you should go broke with early is AA
 
Osmann

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Dingodaddy23 said:
the only hand you should go broke with early is AA
I could find a lot of hands I'm "willing" to go broke with early. AA, KK, QQ, sets, flushes, straights. Just to name a few.
 
Coryan

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Preflop...first few hands...AA is the only hand I will call an allin with (and maybe KK if I can get HU). I will not gamble all my stack with any other hand when the idiots are pushing with any pretty hand they see.
 
ChuckTs

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Arjonius said:
There are different theories of how to play MTTs. Scott Fishman, for example, advocates playing aggressively early on with about a quarter of the starting stack. If you get ahead, keep going, and if you lose it, switch to tight aggressive. Gavin Smith likes to play a lot of pots, especially in position, so he plays a loose, flop or drop type of game. Obviously, both these styles can win, and they're just two examples.
There are plenty of theories about MTTs, but the one that i think applies best to online poker (which i am assuming this thread's question was about) is tight early, then switch gears as the tourney goes on.
The tournaments that Fishman is talking about are probably the big buy-in, deepstacked tournaments where the blinds go up every hour. Online it's completely different. You don't have time to dick around early and be aggressive. Also the players are poor, and won't fold to your bluffs or won't notice your aggression.
Most people don't realize, but a normal MTT online is like a turbo compared to live. Blinds going up every 7 minutes is crazy.
The 'theory' i stated in my previous post is the best for online IMO for certain reasons.
Online poker generally has TONS more fish than live poker, and by that i mean that they won't hesitate to call an all in with facecard-X type hands. So waiting for AA or KK exclusively (before the break) is not a bad idea because generally players won't notice that youve folded EVERY hand and suddenly make a strong push, and will probably call you. You get paid off 10X more than with an observant player. If I were to play as tight as i do in online MTTs in say, the wsop, i'd be blinding myself away, and i guarantee that players would not stack me off when i've folded 30 hands in a row and suddenly come with a 4X reraise.
 
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AceZWylD

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I want to thank everyone for your help on this topic.

Quick update. I have used your advice in my past two tournaments, and I have had great success. Rather than just placing in the top 100, I have finished fourth in each of my last 2 tournaments.

Typically I am still middle stack once I get to the bubble because my tight aggressive play early in the tournament. I have opened up my game once the blinds hit 200-400, and I have gone all in pre flop on the hands I do decide to play. Typically, short stacks fold their blinds to me, and I am able to isolate the chip leaders that are calling everything. I have hit 2 quick double ups to put myself in the top 5 chip stacks. Then I just aggressively defend my blinds, and it has been working well for me.

Thanks for your help. I'm sure that there will be times where this strategy kicks me out at the bubble, but I would rather place top 5 and get a nice pay off for my effort than place in the top 100 and get a small pay off. Thanks again.
 
Coryan

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You da man!

First, CONGRATS on your MTT success...two 4th place finishes is AWESOME.
ChuckTs said:
The tournaments that Fishman is talking about are probably the big buy-in, deepstacked tournaments where the blinds go up every hour. Online it's completely different.
I think ChuckT is right on target here. I recently read (I think in Poker Pro) that Fischman usually plays fairly loose and aggressive with about a quarter of his stack early in these tournaments. Then, if that doesn't go so well, he will tighten up some and look for his opportunities with better hands. Of course, I am sure he can mix that up at times also.

The point is, deepstacked $10,000 buyin tournaments are very different than online $33 tournaments...the chips and blinds being a major difference.
 
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U need to dare put your money in. Every1 is afraid of going out when its just some places toward "in the money" so use it, be really aggresive these times and attack the small stacks to steal blinds. (they should be preatty big) and build your stack so u got a good stack when it really comes to the point of win much and win less.
 
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