Tournament Bankroll Management

Debi

Debi

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This is our strategy article discussion for week 2 in January forum challenge. All members feel free to participate even if you are not participating in the challenge!

Read this article and let's discuss it:

Tournament Bankroll Management


This is one of the first things you need to plan when you start playing tournaments. How much is your bankroll and what stakes should you be playing?

How can you get a bankroll started - do you have funds you can deposit to get you started? If not you can patiently play freerolls until you get enough to get started on some real money tournaments.
 
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milencenov

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I will try to comment, following the same structure of topics as pointed out in the article.

1) Stay in Your Lane

In principle, I agree that rushing to play more expensive tournaments when I get a boost in my bankroll, is a mistake.

However, I do not agree with the table. The author presumes that if I have a much bigger bankroll, I must also increase the % of my bankroll for a single tournament buy-in. Not correct.
In fact, if you increase the % of your bankroll that you would spend on a single tournament, you increase your variance and risk.
The % should be either the same for all bankrolls, or should gradually decrease !
(unless of course, you are clone of Dan Negreanu...)

2) Avoid Re-Buy Tournaments Like The Plague

WRONG ! The author makes the absolutely wrong assumption that I play re-buy tourneys because of the possibility to re-enter.
I play and I NEVER re-buy.
Those tournaments are much cheaper than freezouts, and in re-buy tournaments, you may find a lot of fish and donks who will make stupid "brave" calls and then will quickly re-buy...
You can exploit that and use the reckless players to grow your stack and to not fear elimination.

3) Ignore Sign-Up Bonuses

WRONG ! You should ignore scam bonuses only !
However, if a reputable poker room is offering a bonus - take it.
However, choose your bonus depending on the bankroll you intend to start with !
And don't deposit 1000 $ only to get the biggest bonus, if your skill level is for 1.10 $ tournaments !

4) Stay Off The Tilt Express

A-hahahahahaha - SPOT ON ! Just read my comment under the strategy article for Week 1 !!!!!

I said that my biggest mistake in poker is my bankroll management when I am on tilt !!!
Chasing losses, increasing buy-ins, playing more when I should just go to bed - those are all things that can make you get frustrated...

I know this... and yet, I cannot get away from it...
 
Iryna Stryzheuskaya

Iryna Stryzheuskaya

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I really like freerolls:)
 
Alexandr Svinarshyk

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Stattya interesting. Each person has his own view of the bankroll. I do not make deposits and try to build a bankroll on freerolls.
 
sergik1992

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This article is really very important to all poker players, particularly for new players! Bankroll management helps us to see how good or bad we are on the distance. For example after some winnings last year I decided to try me in $4.40 SnG's on poker stars. My bankroll was $165. After many games I saw a regression and my bankroll was already only $100, and I had to stop to play this limits, but... I continued before I completely wasted my bankroll! And first of all it was my psychological weakness, I believed so much in my winning, that I didn't stop...
So it's easy to see in which games you are good and in which bad. If you make minus - stop! Play only freerolls, CC gives many opportunities to this)
 
makisaa

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I started poker depositing a very small amount of money. I lost them all playing cash games and started playing freerolls, which gave me much more than I had deposited! Now I play small stacks tournaments and I try to raise the buy in as I continue to play. I play cash games too, but I prefer the tournaments. Of course I continue to play freerolls!
 
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All in Pav shared his on twitch I think it was like 100 buy-ins for regular tournaments 2-300 for turbos and like 400 buyins for hyper turbos. He is a very strong player too which goes to show that variance is extreme in these types of tournaments. The article mentions that if you have over 200 you can risk 10% of you roll??? What??? That makes no sense, you are now risking more when presumably your competition pool has increased in skill- its counter intuitive
 
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Anders1616

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I am going to open an account at party poker next month. I play the lowest stakes, in ringgames 1/2 cent and at sit and go up to 50 cent. Normally no more than 1 $ in turnaments. If i use the code CG500, how much money will i have to deposit, to get the maximum outcome, of my money?
 
tagece

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I agree with some points of this article.

First of all, to use entertainment money to play poker. NEVER use money of your primary needs. Not only because you shouldn't gamble with this money anyways, but because it's a fearful money too. If you can't loose it, you probably will avoid more risks in the game than the needed to be successful.

You really need to avoid bigger stakes if you aren't a solid player in the smaller one's. It's throw money away.

About rebuy tournaments, I don't like it anyway. It's a bingo play in the first levels, and have a looong late registering. I only play this format if it's a freeroll, but I never rebuy.

I lost money trying to be a silver in pokerstars, playing higher stakes and registering in fast games to get more points. It's not a good decision, for sure.

The point with which I disagree is about the limits to high stakes. I presume that there are best players in these games than in a 1,10 MTT. So, the risk is greater. I think it's the opposite, you need more caution with your bankroll than playing micro stakes. And more, if you lose a $50 bankroll, it's not so complicated to start again. But if you lose $1.000, it's a huge problem.

But it's a nice article, anyways.
 
No1eJoker

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I think Bankroll is very important and I respect that, I'm a beginner and I did not make a deposit,I play with money which I won on freerolls, so I play the least limits, but I plan to make a deposit so I will have enough bankroll to play
$0.50 SnG and tournaments game. And I think thats player with smaller Bankroll have a smaller choice of games to play.
 
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discintildeath

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Bankroll mgt is hard

As humans we are all very emotional beings. It is very difficult to separate this from the game but as you get better at this the bankroll can be built. I haven't managed to do this yet. I won an ACR CC fr and got $25 and with this money I did pretty well for a week or so until I started swinging up and down. I played a 25$ heads up match and won it to get back to the $70 that I steadily built to but couldn't stop after that. I had to keep playing those higher stakes.

Now I win $2 here and there and have to try to build it up from there because I have trouble waiting to get the 10-20 in winnings to allow me to play more than one buy in. It's a mess but it's better than how I used to be depositing hundreds of dollars and losing a lot of money. I have done VERY well in some bigger tourneys live and online and I know I can play the game well but without bankroll management skills and emotional control I have gotten nowhere with my skills...
 
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ucdengboss

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A few questions and or comments:

1. Don't the blind speeds also increase variance and how is this related? Slower blinds should have a smaller variance, turbos should have a bigger variance, and the hyper turbos the biggest. So maybe 50 BIs is OK for std speed but maybe 75 is needed for turbos and 100 for hyper, etc?

2. I am confused on the buy in and how that relates to the % of bankroll. I would think that the margin of success or how often you cash at higher buy-ins in lower because of higher quality competition (this of course is made up for by bigger total amounts of cash when winning because the buy in is bigger). Shouldn't you have more BIs available because the higher buyins and better competition would have a higher variance? Didn't Daniel N just state that he won $2.7m (many high buy in tournaments) yet lost some money in 2017?
 
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Hondo

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  • The cardinal rule of bankroll management is Never play for more money than you can afford to lose'.
this may seem trivial but not sticking to this rule could lead to financial hard ship. So don't play with rent money, next week's grocery money or the kids' clothes money.

  • Decide your approach to the game
are you going to be a recreational player looking for fun and entertainment, a serious student of the game honing your skills and playing for profit or a professional whose entire income is derived from playing poker.


it is important to determine this to aid in determinng the bankroll you will need


  • Play within your limit.
A recreational player should have a bank roll of 10BBs for any game he plays. A serious player serious player should have at least 30x's the buy in for STT's and 50 times the buy in to play MTT"s. The professional will require at least 100's the buy in of and STT and 200x's the buy in for MTT.


If you hit a downswing don't be afraid to step down a level and never risk more than 10% of your stake at any one time.
Following these rules of thumb will do you well.
  • Re-buys, Bonuses and Tilt.
Until you have some confidence in you game you shouldn't consider playing tournaments that have rebuys, especially if your bankroll is tight.



Bonuses are okay but don't jump at depositing the max to get them because in all likelihood you will not be able to generate enough rake to achieve the full release.


Learning to recognize tilt is paramount to your survival. When it happens step away from the table. Depending on the severity this timeout can be anywhere for 5-15 minutes and possibibly a day or more.
:jd4:




 
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chicopaw

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i am more of a recreational player altho i play almost everyday, im hooked. I im able to deposit and i often gain many entries to larger games via sattalites .Most games i will only use 3-11 dollar range for tournys mostly because of the larger payouts.Playing for some time now i have found if i have a long run ,i rather it pay me well too
 
darthdimsky

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Oh boy, BRM for MTTs must be applied with absolute care. Considering you have freeze outs, limited re-buys (2-3), unlimited buy-ins/add-ons. Plus you've also got to consider field sizes.

I personally apply a 100BIs for BRM and have made it work with fields of 3-500 players profitably in the micros. I'd prefer to have 200BIs for large fields (1K+) and generally because pay jumps are very top heavy with significant ROI happening in the top 1%. In these instances even you're ITM 15-20% of the time you can still be a losing player if you don't have a few 1% cashes. Plus the larger the field the higher the variance.

Unlimited re-buys/add-ons are really profitable if you have a very disciplined approach and can avoid tilt. A min cash may go upto 5BIs. Sometimes I challenge myself to see how far I can go with just one BI and no add-ons. and have had suprising results. Though I've also tilted significant portions of my BR chasing losses, so I avoid them if I'm not in the best frame of mind. I've read that you should practice 300BIs if you're playing re-buys/add-ons.

Once your ITM (In the Money) rate gets to be 20-25%, then you can consider moving up a level.

I respectfully disagree. While it's a good general rule of thumb 20-25% ITM can be a misleading target without factoring in ROI. You can do it with 15-20% and have a significant number of deep runs (final table finishes) and to hit a certain $$ target before moving up. A player, while aiming for 20-25% may be losing if he's min cashing most of the MTTs.

1. Don't the blind speeds also increase variance and how is this related? Slower blinds should have a smaller variance, turbos should have a bigger variance, and the hyper turbos the biggest. So maybe 50 BIs is OK for std speed but maybe 75 is needed for turbos and 100 for hyper, etc?

The same thought crossed my mind. Haven't read any articles or material arguing for this but it's worth doing some more digging around to find out. Personally I apply 100 BIs for the turbos and normal speeds. I avoid hypers like the plague (unless they're the 1c 100BB satellites at partypoker)
 
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I like most of the points, especially not over spending real money to play. However I am curious how reckless people are with their bankrolls if they built it up form free rolls.
 
zam220

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The article is very good and I agree with what is written in it.I think that learning to control your emotions is the key to your success as a poker player, especially in multi-table Tournaments . And always play the limit you feel comfortable.
 
supernuts25

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As humans we are all very emotional beings. It is very difficult to separate this from the game but as you get better at this the bankroll can be built. I haven't managed to do this yet. I won an ACR CC fr and got $25 and with this money I did pretty well for a week or so until I started swinging up and down. I played a 25$ heads up match and won it to get back to the $70 that I steadily built to but couldn't stop after that. I had to keep playing those higher stakes.

Now I win $2 here and there and have to try to build it up from there because I have trouble waiting to get the 10-20 in winnings to allow me to play more than one buy in. It's a mess but it's better than how I used to be depositing hundreds of dollars and losing a lot of money. I have done VERY well in some bigger tourneys live and online and I know I can play the game well but without bankroll management skills and emotional control I have gotten nowhere with my skills...
nicely said. i really like how you explained this. very true
 
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Can Agree with most just did not like the Re-entry part much.
You CAN rebuy. You dont have to. Rebuys in that way can very proffitable as the players ppol maybe small but with guarnty coverd you can get dounble the money because you know that some players will rebuy with 5-10bb stacks and thats wel.. you know =) thios will increase the pool ALOT. Adding that up I just would say that you can lat reg much in rebuys and I would start as sson as possible.Every thing else I agree mostly. The problem with BR wil ALWAYS be there. If you dont have control - you will lose your $$$ 101% of the time nomatter how good you are.
 
schtiuky

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After first cash ernings i started to play for 2% buy ins of the amount . i started to run bad so i had to stop. Now i need to acumulate more for more expensive micro tournaments.
 
Edison A

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Lol

what a great article, it's one of the best I've read, that's why chardschat is one of the best poker cominities, congratulations :)
 
kenzohim

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I have never deposit, n build my bankroll by cc freeroll 4th win $ 8 : ) then I start play $1.1 MTT ! 1st week : I win $ 38 total ! 2nd week : I start playing $ 2.2 -5.5 MTT, + $ 95 3 rd week : working now
 

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Chito

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100% agree avoid the rebuys suuuuuch a huge leak for so many players ESP ones starting out.
 
Ryan Laplante

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The Bankroll Management suggested in this article is very wrong.

As your bankroll grows and you play in tougher games you should be using smaller and smaller % of your roll.

For instance, if I had only $100 Id want around 50 to 100 average buy-ins (ABI) for my games, thus id play in 0.25 to $3 games, and mostly play $1's and $2's. Id never use more than 3% in any game.

If I had $500, then id want to use around 200 ABI. And Id never use more than 2% of roll in a game ($11).

If I had $2000 id want around 300 ABI, and never play in a game above $33.

If I had $5,000 id want around 400 abi and never play in a game above $50.


You can use more aggressive bankroll management if you dont mind depositing. You can also be more aggro in very small field very soft games.


Huge majority of people move up when they can, but not when they should. Make sure you can beat the games before moving up.

These are MINIMUM guidelines. Being more aggressive then this will lead to you going broke.
 
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