Top/Top in SBvBB hand, check fold river or commited?

J

Jbdrmaster

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Villain is VP: 70% / PFR: 0% / Call preflop raise: 48% over 54 hands. I just lost a big pot with top/bottom pair Vs top two pair and this hand happened. Can I check fold the river or am I committed after my turn bet. With how big my turn bet was I didn't put him on the draw and it's hard to check raise a person who never bets. All he ever did was call people down, very passive player. Very frustrating playing against a calling station.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 3.3 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 (t16090)
CO (t10040)
Button (t12728)
Hero (SB) (t10079)
BB (t11190)
UTG (t3730)
UTG+1 (t12735)
MP1 (t29112)
MP2 (t10170)

Hero's M: 33.60

Preflop: Hero is SB with
as.gif
,
jd.gif

5 folds, CO calls t200, 1 fold, Hero bets t800, BB calls t600, 1 fold

Flop: (t1800)
3d.gif
,
jc.gif
,
8d.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets t1400, BB calls t1400

Turn: (t4600)
8c.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets t3600, BB calls t3600

River: (t11800)
5d.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets t4279 (All-In), BB calls t4279

Total pot: t20358

Results:
Hero had A
spade.gif
, J
diamond.gif
(two pair, Jacks and eights).
BB had Q
diamond.gif
, 10
diamond.gif
(flush, Queen high).
Outcome: BB won t20358
 
t1riel

t1riel

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Aside from shoving after the flop, I can't see your opponent folding since he is a calling station. You played it fine.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Shove the turn or bet less on the flop & turn so you can play 3 streets. Leaving yourself 4K behind in a 12K pot on the river is just really bad pot management.

Since villain is a station, I'd just pot the flop & shove the turn.

And I still don't understand how you think its frustrating to play against a calling station... If it were up to me, I'd play with a table full of them.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

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Shove the turn or bet less on the flop & turn so you can play 3 streets. Leaving yourself 4K behind in a 12K pot on the river is just really bad pot management.

Since villain is a station, I'd just pot the flop & shove the turn.

And I still don't understand how you think its frustrating to play against a calling station... If it were up to me, I'd play with a table full of them.


1 or 2 is good, but not a table full of them. If you have a table full of calling stations and hit a long dry spell of cards you just cannot win, bc even with a tight image you cannot bluff.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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1 or 2 is good, but not a table full of them. If you have a table full of calling stations and hit a long dry spell of cards you just cannot win, bc even with a tight image you cannot bluff.
Since when do you need to bluff to win? Seriously, round up a table full of stations, and we'll get a prop bet going.
 
B

baudib1

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Shove the turn as we're obviously never folding the river. lol@c9 trying to play 3 streets in donkaments.

edit: to be honest his draw is pretty damn big.
 
flint

flint

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Not much you can do. If you picked up that he was on a draw, the turn would be a good card to shove. t1riel, your assumption is wrong as shoving on the flop wouldn't get called by much worse (except maybe JT, JQ, KJ) or then you are filpping as in this case.

This pot should be played either big (AKA shove turn) or small by betting something like 950 on flop, 1925 on turn and thus not being as pot commited on the river.
 
Pokerstudent

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Shove the turn or bet less on the flop & turn so you can play 3 streets. Leaving yourself 4K behind in a 12K pot on the river is just really bad pot management.

Since villain is a station, I'd just pot the flop & shove the turn.

And I still don't understand how you think its frustrating to play against a calling station... If it were up to me, I'd play with a table full of them.

Like he said, you KNOW he is a calling station. So bloating the pot out of position preflop might be iffy. But even if you do, when the flop hits, you have to have a plan. I learned this a while ago. I don't necessarily like/dislike the bet.....AS LONG AS you have a plan on your bet sizing on the turn and river. If you have a plan, you would never leave yourself 4K behind in a 12K pot on the river.

If you know he would call an all in on the very first hand if you put him in on the turn for 1450 chips on a 100 chip pot w/ a flush draw, then he's really stupid and shoving on the turn probably won't work. But if the board pairs on the turn, I think you have to shove after bloating the pot like that. In his defence, he did have flush draw, gutter to a straight and an overcard. If he has chasing in his blood, he's NEVER folding.

Check AJo from the BB. Bet the flop. Bet the turn. Check the river.

STUD
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Wtf at all you people wanting him to fold naked flush draws on the turn.
 
G

Grinder101

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Shove the turn or bet less on the flop & turn so you can play 3 streets. Leaving yourself 4K behind in a 12K pot on the river is just really bad pot management.

Since villain is a station, I'd just pot the flop & shove the turn.

And I still don't understand how you think its frustrating to play against a calling station... If it were up to me, I'd play with a table full of them.

I agree, it's bad pot management to leave the 4k behind. On the river you're litterally donking your chips off. If you're not sure and the chips are already in, check the river, your opponent might do something that tips him off ,or he might check because he's a donkey.
 
J

Jbdrmaster

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I agree, it's bad pot management to leave the 4k behind. On the river you're litterally donking your chips off. If you're not sure and the chips are already in, check the river, your opponent might do something that tips him off ,or he might check because he's a donkey.

I like the turn bet in almost any other situation besides the hand I found myself up against. If I put him on the flush&straight draw I would have pushed the turn. At the time I was up in the air and really not sure what to bet on the turn, finally decided it was a weaker J or maybe a smaller pair (possible if you've been playing with this player) and that's why I bet the turn the way I did. I didn't want him to fold, and wanted him to feel committed to calling the 4k on the end. I was more afraid of an 8 than a draw at that point, but didn't want to shut down and give up the pot (not an option imo) so I tried to get him to put his chips in with what I thought was a smaller made hand than mine.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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No post on this thread is asking him to fold. In fact, it's the opposite.
Then why does the post directly above mine say this?

Pokerstudent said:
if you put him in on the turn for 1450 chips on a 100 chip pot w/ a flush draw, then he's really stupid and shoving on the turn probably won't work.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I didn't want him to fold, and wanted him to feel committed to calling the 4k on the end.
This is like the worst logic ever. So you think he'll fold if you make him put the 4K in on the turn, but he'll call when the 4K is put in on the river when all manner of scare cards can hit that make getting value harder. Plus, you know, if he has a draw and it misses, you never get that last 4K from him....
 
V

volpereira

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You played well.

I play the same way, sometimes this third card cames. Sometimes the guy has the flush, sometimes not.

It happens!
 
dwolfg

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Since when do you need to bluff to win? Seriously, round up a table full of stations, and we'll get a prop bet going.

You have to bluff to win
1. When you are not getting quality cards and the blinds are increasing in a tournament.
2. So that your play does not become predictable.

If you can't win at showdown because of the quality of your cards, and you cannot win by getting your opponents to fold, you cannot win, period.
 
J

Jbdrmaster

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This is like the worst logic ever. So you think he'll fold if you make him put the 4K in on the turn, but he'll call when the 4K is put in on the river when all manner of scare cards can hit that make getting value harder. Plus, you know, if he has a draw and it misses, you never get that last 4K from him....
I think that if I pushed the turn for 7800 he would be less likely to call with say J9, than if I put the same amount in over 2 bets. I was effectively shoving while trying to make it look like a weak attempt at a bluff to get a call from a weaker hand that I felt wouldn't call a shove. My mistake was not putting him on a monster draw were he was getting the right price to call, I had him on the J9ish hands. I still think that giving less than 2.5-1 on a call gets most draws to fold the turn. FPS? Probably. Just going to shove the turn next time.
 
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