Too tight in tournament play?

snakey73 · Feb 12, 2011

I usually play 1 table sit n gos , at the low stakes level, trying to build my bankroll slowly but surely.

Recently though, I've started playing some few 180 man turbo MTTs, as I don't think they're beyond me, and the reward structure is much better the the single tables.

I've done ok, getting to three final tables out of around fifteen games played, but my best place has been 7th, just out of the top money places.

Is this a good ratio, or am I playing too tight? I do see a lot of people pushing with practically any two cards in these games, though I'm also aware this is reasonable once your M drop to 5 or below and you've got position , and you're first in the pot.

One of the first hands I played a couple of tournaments ago, was :
Blinds 10/20;
Im in early position and make a 3xBB raise with AK off, one guy pushes all in, in middle position, and immediatley the next guy calls. It gets back to me and I fold as I know AK doesnt play so well against two callers, and surely the third guy in the pot has a monster. Also, with the blinds still very low, I can afford to fold and wait for a better spot.
Anyway when the two remaining in the pot show down, the first guy to go all in shows pockets 9s, and the caller has pocket 4s. Obviously, as I folded there was an Ace on the flop , and another on the turn !

Would anyone think I should have went with this hand, at this stage, or was folding correct?
I'd also appreciate any tips for the final stages. For example, if you're first into the pot, do you only raise with genuine hands at this level, as people seems to reraise you with average or less than average holdings anyway?

Thanks

Ali

10058765 · Feb 12, 2011

well, with AK, and the chance to triple up, I gladly call here.
You may be way behind against AA, and behind to KK, otherwise it's a flip or you're favourite.
It's not only the chips you gain if you win the pot.
It's also about exploiting your big stack in future hands if you win it, and other players see you called with AK, not garbage.
This is not an advice..it's just what I would do.
I'm sure other players would also fold....so there's not a real guide I think.
Though, if I play these 180 men turbo, I want to double/triple up before it gets to 90 players left.
Because of the structure, there's not much time/opportunities to get a good stack before blinds become significant, so yeah...I jump in it with AK.
As said ,if you win with it you can use your stack to run the table, or in case you'll be carddead you got yourself plenty of time to wait.

When it comes to the final stage, say 20-30 people left, open up the other tables.
Focus on your table ofcourse, but try to find out who's stealing, reraising, folding to raise or reraise etc.
Not every player reraises light, so try to find out who will be your targets to steal from.
Look at stacksizes to find out whom to steal from.
Shortstacks may shove light, real bigstacks may put you AI light.
The medium stacks most of the time will only respond with a good hand.
So there's your targets...medium stacks, folding unless they have a good hand.
At the FT your play depends of your stacksize and your reads on other players.
Most of the time, within a few minutes there's only 6 or 7 left, because there's always players who folded their way into the FT, sitting on a shortstack now.
Most of the times there's also 2 or 3 real bigstacks (sometimes just 1).
Avoid the real bigstacks, unless you have it good.
Attack the players of which you see they're playing to get one step higher on the payout .
What I always try to keep in mind, is asking me the question, if I shove , will it hurt them if they call and loose, iow, do I have decent FE.

pol_92121 · Feb 12, 2011

hi, your fold probably was correctif you were playing a tourney with a high buyin but if you are playing a tourney with a buy in of few dollars i think you should go allin at your time with AK.... the reason is the players went allin in that kind of turney with many hands and it's not correct if you thought the third guy had a monster...if he had a moster he went allin and not call only!!!! so i think you had to call...

sweepnet · Feb 12, 2011

I play the 90 man a little lower than you. This is a 2.20 right? I dont think pokerstars has 180 lower than that. With the turbo I think you need to get your money in on each good hand that you can. If it was regular speed I would fold. Also, at the beginning, they will go in with anything. If it was into the game a while, and you had a big stack, and the bet would put you out, it may be a fold, but in the first few hands I would go for it.

I had a similiar case yesterday with AJs, 2 all ins, I called and won. Then had a big stack to work with.

Good Luck

naruto_miu · Feb 13, 2011

snakey73 said:
I usually play 1 table sit n gos , at the low stakes level, trying to build my bankroll slowly but surely.

Recently though, I've started playing some few 180 man turbo MTTs, as I don't think they're beyond me, and the reward structure is much better the the single tables.

I've done ok, getting to three final tables out of around fifteen games played, but my best place has been 7th, just out of the top money places.

Is this a good ratio, or am I playing too tight? I do see a lot of people pushing with practically any two cards in these games, though I'm also aware this is reasonable once your M drop to 5 or below and you've got position , and you're first in the pot.

One of the first hands I played a couple of tournaments ago, was :
Blinds 10/20;
Im in early position and make a 3xBB raise with AK off, one guy pushes all in, in middle position, and immediatley the next guy calls. It gets back to me and I fold as I know AK doesnt play so well against two callers, and surely the third guy in the pot has a monster. Also, with the blinds still very low, I can afford to fold and wait for a better spot.
Anyway when the two remaining in the pot show down, the first guy to go all in shows pockets 9s, and the caller has pocket 4s. Obviously, as I folded there was an Ace on the flop , and another on the turn !

Would anyone think I should have went with this hand, at this stage, or was folding correct?
I'd also appreciate any tips for the final stages. For example, if you're first into the pot, do you only raise with genuine hands at this level, as people seems to reraise you with average or less than average holdings anyway?

Thanks

Ali

[COLOR="Blue"] Well I have to break this into Groups since you asked 3 main things..First I'd like to congratulate you on 3 FT's in the 180 I'm assuming it's the $2.20 rather then the $4.40...Well it really doesn't matter does it? Your First question was you stated you played 15 games or so and maybe FT 3 times, That's real nice in-itself and means your doing something correct, Correct? Now the thing is this, why are you only finishing 7th, that makes me (Just speaking for myself), believe that you are playing way too snug/tight or are usually in the btm of the FT's chip counts, Am I correct in assuming this much to be true? If that's true (Assuming it is) then your issue is that your not taking advantage of the bubble area/time, I mean those are were you get chips from, you should be picking on Lower stacks, and Mid Stacks (Not so much the Big Monster stacks

)...

Well the second thing I wanted to address was the Issue with the AK, Look AK in the start is Nice, I mean it's real nice right? But it's just AK and nothing more, it's not aces, not kings, It's just an ace, and a King..Besides in the Beginning there's so many Bad players that I dont' really mind Raise/Folding AK with 1500 starting Stack, you invested say about 80, your still got back 1420, so I mean you can out play bad players all day long, np...So don't worry about that

Now FT's are well there's just all goooy and fun and yummy (Enough of that), FT's are monsters all in themselves, but it takes a alot of Aggression 4 bets 5 bet reshoves, and some insane moves to scare ppl into folding, also Alot of Steals..Now you wanted to know about Hands to enter pots in with, well rule of thumb E.P(Big Hands only) Middle Position (Decent holdings), Late Position Anything goes with a 2.5-3x Raise...That's my Rule of thumb, hope that helps/COLOR]

GoBilliards · Feb 14, 2011

why doesnt AK play well against 2 PPl? I beg to differ. I agree that a small pair is trash vs 2 PPl but I reship in your spot here. The problem with your thinking is the amount of clowns playing online poker who cant fold subpremium hands to a raise. There may have been a time when a 3bet meant AA or KK but those times are long gone.

GoBilliards · Feb 14, 2011

If you fold premium hands in turbos you have a HUGE LEAK!!!!I would reshove AK preflop vs 2 ppl in a low limit TURBO every time. And I am not a spewtard. This is solid advise.

Poker Orifice · Feb 14, 2011

GoBilliards said:
If you fold premium hands in turbos you have a HUGE LEAK!!!!I would reshove AK preflop vs 2 ppl in a low limit TURBO every time. And I am not a spewtard. This is solid advise.

100% agree with this ^

a prime example just a few mins. ago, $5 buyin 1500chipstack on Titan. Utg raise.. UTG1 calls, MP calls, MP calls.. I have AK in SB.. ALLIN.. UTG calls w KQo.. UTG1 calls w 55.. 'ez game'

Egon Towst · Feb 14, 2011

Poker Orifice said:
a prime example just a few mins. ago, $5 buyin 1500chipstack on Titan. Utg raise.. UTG1 calls, MP calls, MP calls.. I have AK in SB.. ALLIN.. UTG calls w KQo.. UTG1 calls w 55.. 'ez game'

You are roughly a 2:1 dog in that scenario, PO. Do you feel that the one time you win and accumulate a big stack gives you enough winning chances to outweigh the two times you lose your buyin ?

Tonawanda · Feb 14, 2011

Can go either way

snakey73 said:
Would anyone think I should have went with this hand, at this stage, or was folding correct?

Small stakes turbos are tough to play in. Never know if the villans have A5, 22 or AA.

See no problem with folding at that stage of the game against 2 players, or gambling to try to triple up. I would likely call at $2.20 and start thinking about folding at $10+. It's relative to one's bankroll or threshhold for quick exits.

crow27 · Feb 14, 2011

I'm no great player, but I would fold AK only in the first few blind levels. ( to 2 all ins) In a turbo, heads up, sure I don't mind getting it in with AK, but not 3 handed.

Once the blinds reach, say 100/200, unless you have a big stack, I'd just ship it. Remember the blinds go up every 5 minutes, so if you get a good hand, get it in. Don't forget to use position to attack the blinds to your left when you can.

Poker Orifice · Feb 15, 2011

Egon Towst said:
You are roughly a 2:1 dog in that scenario, PO. Do you feel that the one time you win and accumulate a big stack gives you enough winning chances to outweigh the two times you lose your buyin ?

I shoved..... I didn't 'call'. I actually figured I had fold equity there & "YES" I was happy to get it in... & pleased to see what they flipped over. (& would do it again... & again... & again).

snakey73 · Feb 15, 2011

GoBilliards said:
If you fold premium hands in turbos you have a HUGE LEAK!!!!I would reshove AK preflop vs 2 ppl in a low limit TURBO every time. And I am not a spewtard. This is solid advise.

Thanks for that, i know its probably a fine line with Ak in a low stake turbo.

But on a different note, going with your username .... do you play billiards, as in english billiards? There are few of us !:icon_salu

snakey73 · Feb 15, 2011

naruto_miu said:
[COLOR="Blue"] Well I have to break this into Groups since you asked 3 main things..First I'd like to congratulate you on 3 FT's in the 180 I'm assuming it's the $2.20 rather then the $4.40...Well it really doesn't matter does it? Your First question was you stated you played 15 games or so and maybe FT 3 times, That's real nice in-itself and means your doing something correct, Correct? Now the thing is this, why are you only finishing 7th, that makes me (Just speaking for myself), believe that you are playing way too snug/tight or are usually in the btm of the FT's chip counts, Am I correct in assuming this much to be true? If that's true (Assuming it is) then your issue is that your not taking advantage of the bubble area/time, I mean those are were you get chips from, you should be picking on Lower stacks, and Mid Stacks (Not so much the Big Monster stacks )...

Well the second thing I wanted to address was the Issue with the AK, Look AK in the start is Nice, I mean it's real nice right? But it's just AK and nothing more, it's not aces, not kings, It's just an ace, and a King..Besides in the Beginning there's so many Bad players that I dont' really mind Raise/Folding AK with 1500 starting Stack, you invested say about 80, your still got back 1420, so I mean you can out play bad players all day long, np...So don't worry about that

Now FT's are well there's just all goooy and fun and yummy (Enough of that), FT's are monsters all in themselves, but it takes a alot of Aggression 4 bets 5 bet reshoves, and some insane moves to scare ppl into folding, also Alot of Steals..Now you wanted to know about Hands to enter pots in with, well rule of thumb E.P(Big Hands only) Middle Position (Decent holdings), Late Position Anything goes with a 2.5-3x Raise...That's my Rule of thumb, hope that helps/COLOR]

You hit the nail on the head there actually, I pretty much know im playing tighter than most by the looks of it, which i guess is a leak in these kind of games. Its pretty much about timing, position and a slice of luck too, when you start raising with less than good hands. Thats not to say i dont do it either, i would definitely put pressure on the small stacks, and the blinds in late position.

I know calling with less than good hands isn't the way to go, but here's a further question, when you're making your raises with the likes of AT or AJ suited when you're first int the pot, and you get reraised all in, when do you decide to make the gamble, and when to fold. If you've been watching the player and see what they're raising with might give you an idea, but with the turbos you dont get to see players for long. Do you make the call when you're committed chip wise, or is it just a case of shoving, and try to double or triple up?

I have to thank you for your advice by the way, but it also makes me ask more questions !

snakey73 · Feb 15, 2011

Poker Orifice said:
100% agree with this ^

a prime example just a few mins. ago, $5 buyin 1500chipstack on Titan. Utg raise.. UTG1 calls, MP calls, MP calls.. I have AK in SB.. ALLIN.. UTG calls w KQo.. UTG1 calls w 55.. 'ez game'

Ok, so basically what you're saying is go with the AK, even with two all-in-ers at this level. It's a premium hand, and if you double or triple up, you'll have a shot at getting deeper in the tourney.

Thanks guys, I'm quite new here and am grateful for the advice.:icon_salu

Poker Orifice · Feb 15, 2011

snakey73 said:
Ok, so basically what you're saying is go with the AK, even with two all-in-ers at this level. It's a premium hand, and if you double or triple up, you'll have a shot at getting deeper in the tourney.

Thanks guys, I'm quite new here and am grateful for the advice.:icon_salu

There wasn't 'two all-in-ers',.. there was a raise (by a really loose/spewy terrible player) with 3 callers.... waking up w AK in SB was a perfect spot to shove here (with sooooo much dead money in the pot). Didn't think it'd have been likely to get two callers here... 'maybe' one.. the initial raiser (& was pretty sure I'd be ahead of their range & really only behind if they held AA KK which was less likely considering I held AK).

naruto_miu · Feb 15, 2011

snakey73 said:
You hit the nail on the head there actually, I pretty much know im playing tighter than most by the looks of it, which i guess is a leak in these kind of games. Its pretty much about timing, position and a slice of luck too, when you start raising with less than good hands. Thats not to say i dont do it either, i would definitely put pressure on the small stacks, and the blinds in late position.

I know calling with less than good hands isn't the way to go, but here's a further question, when you're making your raises with the likes of AT or AJ suited when you're first int the pot, and you get reraised all in, when do you decide to make the gamble, and when to fold. If you've been watching the player and see what they're raising with might give you an idea, but with the turbos you dont get to see players for long. Do you make the call when you're committed chip wise, or is it just a case of shoving, and try to double or triple up?

I have to thank you for your advice by the way, but it also makes me ask more questions !

Well there's somethings that might have came across as Misleading, when I
stated Put pressure on the Smaller stacks, it actually really depends on your position at the table to do such things (As Apposed to your cards..Keeping this in mind I usually will put pressure on Smaller stacks when, I'm on the Button or the C.O or the H.J (All those positions) Firstly, 2nd thing I watch out for is E.P Callers/Limpers other big stacks or any one else that just limps in E.P, 3rd thing I keep considering is A) Does this person usually defend or just Give up, or call and then Fold to C-Bets or Call and likes to float to make moves on the Turn (all these questions you also have to consider)...

Now AJ-10s (In E.P) is auto Muck personally or just a limp call personally That's just me (Yet again it really depends on your table), I mean look at it like this, if your playing A10 from the UTG, and you know this table is Aggressive calling Station then I'd just muck it rather then lose the Minimum correct? Look I've played some games where the ppl are rather retarded and A/10 is ahead of there range but A10 doesn't really flop well, you know most boards will miss you and even if you hit your A/10 or a Draw (It's just a Draw and A/10 is an Ace with a decent kicker, and I mean it's just too much work to find out where your at in the hand)...

Egon Towst · Feb 16, 2011

Poker Orifice said:
I shoved..... I didn't 'call'. I actually figured I had fold equity there & "YES" I was happy to get it in....

Poker Orifice said:
Didn't think it'd have been likely to get two callers here... 'maybe' one.. the initial raiser.

Understood. If you anticipate that you will most often get one caller or none, it`s clearly +EV to shove.

GoBilliards · Feb 17, 2011

Egon Towst said:
You are roughly a 2:1 dog in that scenario, PO. Do you feel that the one time you win and accumulate a big stack gives you enough winning chances to outweigh the two times you lose your buyin ?

You are not quite a 2 to1 dog and you are getting more than 2 to 1 on your money. Trillion dollar casinos are built every day with less edge than this. It is +EV if you know you are getting both callers at this level in a turbo. Any level turbo really. Ranges tend to be open way more in a turbo even for the great players. the original raise is prolly any ace or better and the 2 nd player calls with any pair and A 10 or better. Its a no brainer really.

Too tight in tournament play?

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