Is there 'really' a correct strategy for winning multi thousand mtt's

This is my arguement for huge field mtt's
I think overall if your a world class grinder, then you can play your optimal game and stick to it and jut get the cash done.

but as a whole for poker players in there thousands who are not in that top 5-10% of the field.
I dont beleive playing an optimal strategy is going to be profitable because the more skillful players will overrun them and do the same plus a bit extra.

so this is my arguement.

*most of my big tournament wins have come from times when i've played hands maybe which are regarded a fold, Maybe I dunno 7-5 suited 5 off or QJ out of position flatted...
times when ive thought to myself this is an horrendus play but my insticnts are telling me to flat call in this spot...

and you know what, I've double up! or took a huge pot,

this is something I have also noticed when i have that winning feeling, and I wont donk call with Q7 suited and then flopped full houses, or folded my QA to a Shuv for 75% of my stack and flopped trips...

ironicly these are the tournaments I have ran deep in.

and what Im saying is grinding aside, when your playing the big MTT's every dog has its day (in the positive sense)
if you have reasonable knowledge of poker, you might aswell embrace this and loosen up see more hands,
because sometimes we are the chosen ones on that day and had we taken more chances anyone of us could be looking at that dream five figure, bankroll boosing poker changing tournament win.
whats ultimately makes you.

So what I'm saying guys is for huge field mtt's only (obviously not expensive ones) no more than $16.00 perhaps.

Embrace your day, and take those chances, listen to your instincts and just go for it.
sure overall you may cash less, but whats a $15.00 cash in a 3,700 field you will win plenty more sit n go's
you might aswel aim for that 4 figure cash and let fate try and give you a hand..

obviously if your a top 10% field player you can just stick to it...
but if your yet to get your big cash... just allow the cards to do you a favour in these tournaments.

AND thats my arguement for aspiring players who maybe aren't getting many big cashes.

Imo, it's all about the long run. You might have been lucky with a few hands, but if you continue this play in the long run you might not win. It's all about the range of the other player.

yea of course thats the way I will play, I may occasionally loosen up if im feeling good about a tournament and things are going my way easy pots running well.

sometimes its good to get involved in alot of pots early cos when you do hit it hard you can get payed off.

But for these timid optimal players who probably never take risks, they might aswell take risks and up the aggro otherwise they will just keep min cashing/getting bubbled with an occasional run of supreme luck one FT every 6 months etc.

My belief is every player has his day if your able to sense this take advantage of it, the cards will do you favours. and being the tournament field is so large your chances are slim anyway so if you feel this is your day go for it...

cotta777 said:

Is there 'really' a correct strategy for winning multi thousand mtt's

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that's a million dollars question

Large field MTTs are extremely high variance endeavors. Even the pros lose far more often than they win. Your best bet is to keep making the right decisions, plow through the variance, and eventually you will show results. You've got to face the fact that 90-95% of online players are losing players over the long term. That goes for most CC and 2+2 members as well (the winning % might be slightly better only because the forum demographic is more likely to be serious players/students, but not substantially higher).

cotta777 said:

this is something I have also noticed when i have that winning feeling, and I wont donk call with Q7 suited and then flopped full houses, or folded my QA to a Shuv for 75% of my stack and flopped trips...

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Forget this, for a couple of reasons. First, the right decision is the right decision, regardless of what comes later. Stop being results oriented! But more importantly for online poker, with the exception of pokerstars, all sites use a constant shuffle RNG. Meaning unlike a static shuffle (ala live dealer) the deck is being constantly reshuffled thousands of times per second all the way through until showdown. Meaning the flop (and turn, and river) you see when you fold would not have been the flop you see when you call because of minute (i.e. milliseconds) difference in yours AND every other player's reaction time that would always vary as actions vary.

So you should immediately disabuse yourself of any concern for what cards fall after a fold.

@dmorris

Just reading about the constant shuffle and wondered how the pokerstars shuffle is different.

spsb83 said:

@dmorris

Just reading about the constant shuffle and wondered how the pokerstars shuffle is different.

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PS uses a static shuffle, like a live deal. The deck is shuffled at the start of the hand and set for the remainder of the hand. I think they're the only site still doing this.

An interesting aside to this is that many of the rooms that do constant shuffle also offer (or did) a rabbit hunt feature. Perfect example of giving the customers what they want even though it would be meaningless due to the constant shuffle.

play poker long enough and it like breathing air...good players know what to do in all situations

@dmorris - didn't know the part with shuffling decks, thanks for sharing...

And i agree that right decision is right decision, no madder what happens later in a hand that we skipped, It took me lest then a month of poker to stop bothering with that. I also used to get pissed when im sit out few hands in tourney for some reason and when i check hand history i see that i had aces or kings (just as im writing this i missed to play a AA hand... ) lately i dont care, i just think that who knew what could have happened if i get involved and stop thinking of it..

But i also have to agree with Cotta about taking chances in tourney because all you need is one big hit, one good variance and you're in a 4 or 5 or more figures... It is better imho that constantly being around bubble and making cents and dollars...

As much as it pains me to say this (because I don't like how he abuses players), Phil Helmuth has a fairly proven method against large weak fields....

I've played a lot of Carbon freerolls where the field is over 3,000. It seems I run into players just throwing chips in the pot until I inevitably bust out. I've imagined the same thing exists for most buy ins - there will always be people with giant bankrolls coming down for a splash or mentally impaired players that managed to put $10 on a site. I saw the same thing in a Poker Maximus $20 game that I had a ticket for.

I'm to the point of trying an early double up for the freerolls - if I'm gone in 10 minutes nothing was really lost.

No more rabbit chasing for me unless Merge says they use a static shuffle.

dmorris68 said:

PS uses a static shuffle, like a live deal. The deck is shuffled at the start of the hand and set for the remainder of the hand. I think they're the only site still doing this.

An interesting aside to this is that many of the rooms that do constant shuffle also offer (or did) a rabbit hunt feature. Perfect example of giving the customers what they want even though it would be meaningless due to the constant shuffle.

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Thanks for posting this, I was curious about the topic and thinking of creating a thread to ask about it. I'll bet that somebody will come along and argue that this is further "evidence" that OLP is rigged, when they should be focusing on leaks in their game instead. We don't know what the next card in the deck is either way, so the type of shuffle is irrelevant, it's all about the odds.

My problem in the early stages of huge freerolls is trying to range opponents (which is probably a waste of time in the early stages anyway), I always give them way more credit than they deserve. For example, I'll be on the button with A6s, two will shove in front of me, and I will fold because I don't like weak Aces aipf with multiple players in the pot. Then, the villains will turn over stuff like K2 and T7. On the flip side, people open shove AA and KK all the time. My other issue is that if I play super tight and wait for the donks to get slaughtered, like many say to do, my chip stack is miniscule going into the middle stages and I wind up busting out soon after.

capecoralhobo said:

No more rabbit chasing for me unless Merge says they use a static shuffle.

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Merge uses a constant shuffle, or at least they always did to my knowledge. Like I said, I think PS is the only site doing a static shuffle. Of course I haven't really kept up with online tech in the last couple years since BF, I don't know what changes if any some sites might have made in recent updates.

As to rabbit hunting, it's a foolish exercise which serves to keep bad players hooked and encourage future bad play. It's the definition of being results oriented. If you see you folded what would have made a monster, even if it was absolutely the right thing to do, it could sway your next fold decision.

So the type of shuffle is irrelevant. Serious players shouldn't be concerned with rabbit hunting, they should be concerned with making the correct decision based on the information they have. The high stakes players you see rabbit hunting are doing it more for entertainment value than anything, not because they're basing future decisions on the outcome.

Propane Goat said:

Thanks for posting this, I was curious about the topic and thinking of creating a thread to ask about it. I'll bet that somebody will come along and argue that this is further "evidence" that OLP is rigged, when they should be focusing on leaks in their game instead. We don't know what the next card in the deck is either way, so the type of shuffle is irrelevant, it's all about the odds.

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Believe me, the argument has been made numerous times. Some have tried to argue how it's further proof that online poker doesn't have the "integrity" of live poker. As if it mattered at all whether the deck is randomized once or constantly.

While there really is no such thing as "more random" -- something is either random or not -- you could really nitpick their argument by pointing out the constant shuffle is "more random" and safer than a live deal, where it's theoretically/physically possible to gain knowledge about what the next cards are.

Either way, with online poker, it's a silly argument because you have no way of ever knowing what the next card is, as you point out.

dmorris68 said:

As to rabbit hunting, it's a foolish exercise which serves to keep bad players hooked and encourage future bad play.

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I realize it's been a distraction to me and more than anything a way to get someone to show their cards.

As far as 2,000+ entry MTT, I have found that playing tight in the early rounds is easy to do. But there always seem to be some LAG that tripled up and rolls over me. I think the main thing is to have patience and have fun.

The Carbon HORSE freeroll I'm playing in now pays 64 out of 1608. I look at it like 1 cash in 25 tries is average, and it might take 4 years to win. With the luck I've had lately, Merge should shut down in 3 years 364 days

capecoralhobo said:

I realize it's been a distraction to me and more than anything a way to get someone to show their cards.

As far as 2,000+ entry MTT, I have found that playing tight in the early rounds is easy to do. But there always seem to be some LAG that tripled up and rolls over me. I think the main thing is to have patience and have fun.

The Carbon HORSE freeroll I'm playing in now pays 64 out of 1608. I look at it like 1 cash in 25 tries is average, and it might take 4 years to win. With the luck I've had lately, Merge should shut down in 3 years 364 days

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absoloutely my point,

when the fields are so large and the buy ins are micro stakes, you might aswell have fun play slightly loose when your running well and your gut instincts are directing you into decisions.
because your odds onfinal table are minimal anyway

in my belief poker is poker, skill and math.
but when your cards are in your cards are in. thats how the universe works sometimes in sport and in poker its written in the stars.

this ofcourse changes when your grinding 10 hours a day, in which case always make the best or right long term play.
but as for reacreational tournament use if your playing to win the big prize, always take your cards when its your day

Yeh onlyh play situations with strong ev during tournaments..
unless blinds get high and ahve to make a good move..
try to get 2to 1 situaitons in your favor.

anybody know what type of shuffle bovada uses?

bodog used a continuous shuffle, my assumption would be Bovada does as well. As I've said, continuous is the norm in the industry.

As an aside, continuous shuffle machines can also be found live, although usually in games like blackjack and baccarat. I've not heard of them used in poker yet, although I wouldn't doubt somebody has.

Well thanks for the info friend, think i will be a big fan of the continuous shuffle.



this is last sunday, played that one for 16$ still learning my mistakes
so i won but not like i wanted to, eventualy i will take the big cheese
number one on my poker checklist is in all caps

DONT GET GREEDY! lol

and sry for the sloppy posting, still getting used to this lol

mlgibbs78 said:

Yeh onlyh play situations with strong ev during tournaments..
unless blinds get high and ahve to make a good move..
try to get 2to 1 situaitons in your favor.

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77 is 2:1 against random hand per http://www.propokertools.com/simulations

Is that a good spot to try and double up in a large field?