Super Turbo's, do cards matter?

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CaptainKout

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I think NOT or barely. So the 11 cent superturbos are the only one's I'm playing because my roll is nonexistent so play might be totally different elsewhere but these players are poo. Here's the thing, I'm not really looking at my cards. Sure I wanna play strong Aces and mid to premium pocket pairs, but the games are too short. You might not get any and just blind out. The way I'm playing these tournies, still a work in progress obviously, but I'm really just shoving when other people don't seem to want to put their stack on the line.

Strategy Outline:
a)Shove at limpers.
b)Shove in the blinds against steal attempts.
c)Shove pocket pairs and strong aces at big stacks.
d)Shove any ace at short stacks and 88+
e)Don't call shoves from big stacks
f)Don't call shoves from short stacks with others behind

a)Basically if they don't shove out of the gate then they have a monster (QQ+) or random broadways/weak aces that they likely don't wanna stack off with yet. Its happened repeatedly in the early goings that there are two limpers with me in the big blind. I shove atc and they both fold, one of them shows A9, kj, or 66 and says something dum in the chatbox. Since youre starting off with 10x the blinds winning 100 or 150 off each limper increases your stack by like 20%+ plus you keep your blind. If they call, youre probably behind like 60-40 but who cares. You suck out 40% of the time, and sometimes you have a reasonable hand. Most importantly, if it succeeds twice you can pretty much coast to the money and I think that it was a rather high rate of success anyways.

b)Since the blinds move up so fast, people start trying to steal. Again, if they don't shove they're trying to steal without risking their stack.

c)Big stacks are trying to knock people out. Their calling with pretty weak hands especially once they've doubled up twice. You actually need value here tho because they'll call so often. You want to double up through the big stacks because they're playing weaker hands than the others, with the exception of short stacks.

d)Short stacks are desperate, you can shove your middle pairs at them because you aren't risking your whole stack and usually your better than 50/50 so its worth the risk. You can also play any ace here because they will feel obligated to play the j10 or whatever since its the first decent hand they've seen since the tournie started.

e)When other people are shoving you can basically trust that they want to be called. ESPECIALLY if they shove utg or utg+1. I never call shoves from big stacks without Dominating aces(AQ+) or premium pairs. Their calling range is much better for you than their shoving range. A reasonable tell here is if they size up a shorter stack and raise exactly his stack. Usually that means weak ace. When they shove their whole stack its a monster and they couldn't help but hit the all in button.

f)The small stacks are shoving bad hands, we know that but when there are people behind you, the question is do you call or shove. Calling shows you don't want your whole stack involved and welcomes the big stacks to put you all in. Shoving is better but with people behind they're bound to be someone waiting with a monster or just a better ace or something. Let someone else collect the short stack when you're oop unless youre confident that no one else wants to play this pot, meaning you've got wicked nits behind or you're in the blinds.

OK. Constructive criticism, please.
 
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WiZZiM

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Didn't read through most of it, will later, but it looks like your onto the right idea to me.
 
jaxpaboo

jaxpaboo

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Sounds like a good plan... really isn't much of a poker game. Too few hands make this a 'lucky' game, not a 'skill' game.
 
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WiZZiM

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Sounds like a good plan... really isn't much of a poker game. Too few hands make this a 'lucky' game, not a 'skill' game.

It shows a clear lack of understanding to state this as just a "lucky" game.. It's still a skill game, regular players winning over literally tens of thousands of games proves that. It's just a differant type of skill. It's one that is easier to learn in many ways, but also still very challenging.

It's more about probabilities, math, and multitabling. So there is a ton of money to be made in these games, you just need to know what to study and get good at.
 
Arjonius

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For someone with a "nonexistent" roll to criticize opponents at the lowest stakes as "poo" reminds me of the pot calling the kettle black. Until you prove you're a solid winner at this level, why should anyone think you're not poo yourself?

One piece of constructive criticism I'll offer is to let your results speak for themselves. Telling yourself your opponents are bad (which implies that you believe you aren't) is your ego talking. It doesn't make your game any better than it actually is, and may even decrease your perceived need to improve.

Another is to play ABC poker in regular speed games until you've demonstrated you're a solid winner. It's like making sure you have a sound foundation before you erect a building on it.
 
Pascal-lf

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Cards do matter, but in the sense in some spots you should shove top 60%, some top 90% rather than ATC

Compared to deepstack poker your range will be way wider, but it will depend a lot on how other players are playing and calling. For this reason, it may feel like cards don't matter, but there will be plenty of spots where shoving 95s is good but shoving 83o is bad, for example, even though both feel like bad hands
 
sam1chips

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True, this is to be said about any heads up match, but especially in turbo heads up matches. The cards are almost less significant than the chip count, and the opponents playing style. whoever can establish themself in the first 3-4 hands as the more aggressive, whether with raising or calling raises and forcing the other to check/fold is the one who normally wins. After gaining about 60% of the chips, the other person usually starts to either push or fold pre-flop. The bigger stack keeps leaning on the little stack, and eventually they will be forced to push all in with a semi-mediocre hands
At least thats my experience
 
thebigdawg

thebigdawg

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Its solid logic, I have a played a few them 11 cent st before...for the same reasons you are. Not a fan, its like a whole different form of holdem.
 
jaxpaboo

jaxpaboo

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It shows a clear lack of understanding to state this as just a "lucky" game.. It's still a skill game, regular players winning over literally tens of thousands of games proves that. It's just a differant type of skill. It's one that is easier to learn in many ways, but also still very challenging.

It's more about probabilities, math, and multitabling. So there is a ton of money to be made in these games, you just need to know what to study and get good at.

Lack of understanding? Super Turbo? Is this 3min blinds/double blinds every level? .11? This is crap-shoot, not much to understand. Skill game, Math, Probabilities at this level? Lol! Ok. You only have a handful of hands to play "read" poker, then it's all-in fest.

Only reason I could see to play a superturbo is if you are very limited on the time you can play... but if you are limited in time, you should be playing SNGs. If you are serious about maximize your skill at a tournament player, then you need to maximize your odds by playing standard levels... the more hands you are dealt, the more skill you can impart to your games... the less luck you have to force.

No such think as proof in poker, only experience.

I multitable 6 handed Turbo SNGs DONs... so I know there is more luck involved with those games vs a non-Turbo same format. But when I take into the account that loose/gamble players are going to be playing these turbo DONs and the super NITs aren't going to play (they will always go for the non-turbo), then it's a wash.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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Lack of understanding? Super Turbo? Is this 3min blinds/double blinds every level? .11? This is crap-shoot, not much to understand. Skill game, Math, Probabilities at this level? Lol! Ok. You only have a handful of hands to play "read" poker, then it's all-in fest..

you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, just because other players don't have a clue what they are doing doesn't mean you can't still crush. there are very decent edges in these 11c tournaments if you know what you are doing.
 
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WiZZiM

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I'll post some more helpful info to the OP tommorow, his well written thread deserves better than this.

Jax, your welcome to your opinion, i don't really agree with any of it, but good luck all the same :D.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Sounds like a good plan... really isn't much of a poker game. Too few hands make this a 'lucky' game, not a 'skill' game.

This sort of comment and lack of knowledge is exactly the very reason as to why these super turbos are indeed very profitable.

They(you) think, gamble, it's all about luck and literally call any two/shove in wrong spots etcetc and the good players pick up and can pull in huge profits against players like you and that is why they are played so much.

You only need to check out the huge winners in these games to appreciate that.

In fact, the current number one profitable player on pokerstars (on sharkscope) at present, is through super turbo games and has made well over $500,000 in these games in less than a year. Not to mention how much in rakeback too.
 

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RamdeeBen

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I multitable 6 handed Turbo SNGs DONs... .


This comment here sums it up as to how you can even say there is no skill involved in super turbo games when DON have no skill or any form of poker at all involved in them.

DON poker games are the most unskilled hold'em NL game there is and actually has very little "real" poker involved. It's all about folding to the money and shoving in a few spots and let all the even worse players bust out first. You don't need to know anything, other than maybe getting your chips in with Aces, you don't need to know hand ranges or anything. They are a rakeback paradise but that's about it, you won't make anywhere near the same money in these as you would in super turbos.

Even the top DON players in the world admit the fact that DON games are not the game to improve your poker game as a whole and you would benefit so much more in turbos than DON nitfests.
 
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CaptainKout

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I've been away for a while and I think I got my head clear.

To the experienced guys, I shouldn't be calling anyone else "poo" because to many people I'm poo and I know it. But in all seriousness, limp folding 4 hands in a row at a superturbo is definitely poo type play and at .11 you will see that. Truth be told I've only played a dozen or so(all in one session and against the same likely drunks) but I wasn't trying to sell my advice as an experienced players recipe to beat the game. I do more thinking than playing because I'm trying to play more profitable hours and when I'm not playing I wish I was. Even the title of the threat is kinda douchey. I probably wrote this after a good session, a celebratory beer or six, and I promise I've got more humility than I let on.

Also, I played with pokerstove for a while and shoving atc probably isn't right. By narrowing your range to any two suited cards you can get probably get to 43-57 in most pots and any remotely connected suited cards will get you around 45-55 or better. Thats probably more profitable and will give you plenty of opportunity to take pots away from limpers. So pascal hit it right on the head.
 
Pascal-lf

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it takes a brave man to reassess his opinion and post he was wrong, wp Captain :)
 
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CaptainKout

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I've played some more superturbos. Did really poorly but played rather well i think. I'm not shoving blindly the way I was before. Now I'm playing pretty tight for like two or three orbits. Even tho everyone else is shoving out of the gate, stack sizes might still be a little big for that. By then the blinds are at least double and youre usually on the bubble which makes the shoves more intimidating. Now, thats when I open up and start shoving at limpers and especially steal attempts since by this point nobody really limps anymore.

As for calling shoves on the bubble, what do you guys recommend? I'm having really bad luck calling with pocket pairs less than 7's(still a really small sample) but since everyone is shoving pocket pairs, I've been way behind calling with the small ones when they have medium ones. I guess thats still better than having an unpaired small card hand but I wasn't considering these anyways. Should I cut out the really weak Aces because they get dominated so often?
 
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BlueNowhere

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Really hard to say a generic answer. Just look up an ICM calculator and in spots your unsure of just put in all details and you'll see what sort of range you should be calling with in different spots.
 
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Cdub512

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Super turbos is very situational, and there is a lot of variance in them. It's not uncommon to go on a big losing streak without cashing. That's the nature of the game, especially since you only start with 10 bbs (unless you play the .11s on merge).
 
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cheaptrix

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this is the best "free" site i have found on super turbos. the strategy discussed is geared towards the old FTP 9-man ST but i think you could still get some value from this site to beat 6-man ST.
http://www.super-turbo-poker-tips.com/

if you really want to move up and profit from these SNGwiz is going to be your new best friend.
 
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cheaptrix

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As for calling shoves on the bubble, what do you guys recommend? I'm having really bad luck calling with pocket pairs less than 7's(still a really small sample) but since everyone is shoving pocket pairs, I've been way behind calling with the small ones when they have medium ones. I guess thats still better than having an unpaired small card hand but I wasn't considering these anyways. Should I cut out the really weak Aces because they get dominated so often?

generally you should fold most small pairs to a shove on the bubble. stack sizes are the main thing you need to look at when deciding how to play a hand... then villains range.
if your the short stack then you should be more willing to call with something like 77 but if say the SB is short and the button shoves then you should rarely call. your calling range might be as tight as JJ+,AK... just depends on stack sizes and villains perceived range.

as i said in my previous post, you really need SNGwiz to help you figure out what range you should call or shove in these tournaments. some situations calling with anything less than AA would be -EV. you might even find a scenario where you would fold everything.
 
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WatchThis907

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The other night played probably a hundred of these, always managed to win enough to keep playing, but it's a crapshoot really. They do take a special kind of strategy, its shove or nothing really, and knowing when to pick your spots.
 
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andrewsz1991

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I've been haivng a ver tough time with these. I started playing the .11 ones on blackchip and haven't won one yet. I like to shove in position, shove over limpers, and steal raises in position. Am I just getting unlucky with my calls?
 
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Tgen

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i follow kill everyone's shove ranges on those but my call range is very tight until the bubble like AQs and JJ+ , i shove atc on position when i am very low like under 10bb , resteal or shove limpers can work but sometimes its a trap so i dont do it too often , on the bubble i feel the game its all about to shove a big range to preserve your stack and the first one to draw something significant to call something like 88+ AJo+ will win .

Its not unusual to go on an insane bad streak when you cant win a coinflip at all even when you dominate , one day i lost every single coinflip when i dominated almost all the coinflips like KK vs QQ or AT vs A7 etc , be carefull with them because you may win big sometimes but lose them all on the next day.

Overall i believe its a skilled game and not a crapshoot like many believe , any decision is life or death and it takes experience to do the right thing , you have to know when to pass marginal +ev spots , who to minraise steal with atc on sb and many other things.
 
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CaptainKout

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For any newcomers to this thread. I need to "bump" or whatever the expression is Cheaptrix's post.
 
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