Suggestions when to shove as the SS

dlam · Nov 10, 2011

Playing MTT halfway into the tourn.
Im the SS at the table with 15 BB.
Im thinking about going all-in. I want to be selective and wait for a few cycles until have the right hole cards.
If I get under 10BB then I will shove any two hole cards.
What range of hole cards should I shove with at 15 BB?
I thinking any pair over 66 or any two cards with A, K , Q, J combined.
What do you think?

fletchdad · Nov 10, 2011

It is not just your hole cards if you have 10-15BB. Its your position here that is much more relevant, as well as stack sizes. (unless you have AA-QQ UTG or something, then stacks still count, depending))

The later your position, the wider you push. BUT if you are in LP with 72, and have 2 loose wild blinds you dont push here (normally). If you are in the CO with, say K9, the stacks to follow are all middle (not big, not short) and 2 SS in EP, push.

As one example.

If you are more than 2-3 level, 15 BB is not necessarily SS in an MTT.

Poker Orifice · Nov 11, 2011

dlam said:
Playing MTT halfway into the tourn.
Im the SS at the table with 15 BB.
Im thinking about going all-in. I want to be selective and wait for a few cycles until have the right hole cards.
If I get under 10BB then I will shove any two hole cards.
What range of hole cards should I shove with at 15 BB?
I thinking any pair over 66 or any two cards with A, K , Q, J combined.
What do you think?[/quote]
I think > not near enough info. & 'it depends'

dj11 · Nov 11, 2011

Your ranges are not bad. Depends also on the blind levels.

Important factor is the pot is unopened (unless you have a monster hand).

So an early position shove often is a better move than a late position shove where there has already been some action.

In an online tourney, 15bb is not so terrible, but don't do silly stuff like limp. Be agro, or be nothing. Do not fall into the FPS (fancy play syndrome). You don't have much FE (fold equity {ability to convince your villains to fold}).

Depending on when the bubble is, even 10 bb's is not horrendous (M is about 6..ish). Not comfortable for sure, but livable. Remember there are others who are watching that bubble too, and don't want to jeopardize their stacks. The closer to the bubble, the crazier you can be.

To do the ATC with a decent shot at inducing folds, you must be the first raiser.

baudib1 · Nov 12, 2011

Shove when it folds to you in the SB.

dlam · Nov 15, 2011

fletchdad said:
It is not just your hole cards if you have 10-15BB. Its your position here that is much more relevant, as well as stack sizes. (unless you have AA-QQ UTG or something, then stacks still count, depending))

The later your position, the wider you push. BUT if you are in LP with 72, and have 2 loose wild blinds you dont push here (normally). If you are in the CO with, say K9, the stacks to follow are all middle (not big, not short) and 2 SS in EP, push.

As one example.

If you are more than 2-3 level, 15 BB is not necessarily SS in an MTT.

I prefer to widen my range when there are less players at the table, not later position.
If I have K9 at the CO I'll push if I feel the blinds do not defend often (by observation) rather by looking at stack size.

baudib1 · Nov 15, 2011

If the blinds are tight, shove a lot worse than K9.

dlam · Nov 15, 2011

dj11 said:
Your ranges are not bad. Depends also on the blind levels.

Important factor is the pot is unopened (unless you have a monster hand).

So an early position shove often is a better move than a late position shove where there has already been some action.

In an online tourney, 15bb is not so terrible, but don't do silly stuff like limp. Be agro, or be nothing. Do not fall into the FPS (fancy play syndrome). You don't have much FE (fold equity {ability to convince your villains to fold}).

Depending on when the bubble is, even 10 bb's is not horrendous (M is about 6..ish). Not comfortable for sure, but livable. Remember there are others who are watching that bubble too, and don't want to jeopardize their stacks. The closer to the bubble, the crazier you can be.

To do the ATC with a decent shot at inducing folds, you must be the first raiser.

Yes I notice bubble time players get tight.
When the M=6 for another player then I expect a all in push .
I will consider unopen pot to push as it may or maybe not be respected

dlam · Nov 15, 2011

baudib1 said:
Shove when it folds to you in the SB.

Done that
Works , but cant be to liberal
BB starts defending.

fletchdad · Nov 15, 2011

dlam said:
I prefer to widen my range when there are less players at the table, not later position.
If I have K9 at the CO I'll push if I feel the blinds do not defend often (by observation) rather by looking at stack size.

sure, if the blinds like to fold then abuse em. But if you have a couple of folded SS you can shove even wider as long as the blinds are not maniacs.

And I am gonna widen my range positionally.

dlam · Nov 15, 2011

fletchdad said:
sure, if the blinds like to fold then abuse em. But if you have a couple of folded SS you can shove even wider as long as the blinds are not maniacs.

And I am gonna widen my range positionally.

Say K 9 at CO with 10 BB I raise 3X BB leaves me with 7BB stack.
Great if both blinds fold, but if one calls then there's 6.5BB in the pot.
Postflop play becomes too difficult,
I have to rely on hitting a card post flop(less than half the time).
If I dont hit (most of the time) I have to c-bet or make a courage call if the villian will bet /steal the pot, . either way I will not win the pot checking it down.
I pretty much have to decide wether I am pot commitment post flop.
Not the way I would go out of the tournament, I rather push shove 10 BB into the blinds, I have fold equity.most players are not maniacs , they are usually out early or have such a huge stack that this play would not work.
If the blind wake up with big pair and call then I can live with that.

I feel more comfortable with your strategy and play position with medicore cards if I have 20BB or more.

BluffYou123 · Nov 15, 2011

Raising 3Xbb with K9 or any other hand with 10bbs is horrible. Just shove all in or fold preflop.

baudib1 · Nov 15, 2011

dlam said:
Done that
Works , but cant be to liberal
BB starts defending.

It should be pretty much ATC.

Shufflin · Nov 15, 2011

dlam said:
Say K 9 at CO with 10 BB I raise 3X BB leaves me with 7BB stack.
Great if both blinds fold, but if one calls then there's 6.5BB in the pot.
Postflop play becomes too difficult,
I have to rely on hitting a card post flop(less than half the time).
If I dont hit (most of the time) I have to c-bet or make a courage call if the villian will bet /steal the pot, . either way I will not win the pot checking it down.
I pretty much have to decide wether I am pot commitment post flop.
Not the way I would go out of the tournament, I rather push shove 10 BB into the blinds, I have fold equity.most players are not maniacs , they are usually out early or have such a huge stack that this play would not work.
If the blind wake up with big pair and call then I can live with that.

I feel more comfortable with your strategy and play position with medicore cards if I have 20BB or more.

I don't remember anyone saying you should raise 3X with 10BB -- yr original post was considering 15BB, anyway. What about a smaller raise from cutoff w K9 and 15BB? 2.1-2.5X? Way easier to fold to a 3-bet, and you get some post-flop play if called...

baudib1 · Nov 16, 2011

With 15 BBs, if the people behind you are likely to call or resteal, shove.

If they are more likely fold or shove, minraise.

Less than 15 BBs, should pretty much just shove.

ZNT746 · Nov 22, 2011

IMO I think you should always post the buy-in of the tournament you're referring to. That usually makes a big difference in what your shove ranges should be. For instance in $1 MTT's or lower most of your opponents are more concerned with what they have than what you have so your range becomes wider. At higher stakes people are more likely to pick up on you trying to steal the blinds, so you have to adjust accordingly.

Also, in most cases I don't think 15BB is really a "fold or shove" kind of stack. It all depends on what your opponents stacks are like. But from my experience, in most tournaments, with 15BB i'm not really in short-stack mode quite yet. But it really all depends on the structure of the tournament, who you're playing, what their stacks are like, etc.

Because of all those variables, there isn't really an exact range we can tell you to shove with, you just have to use your knowledge of the table you're at.

RamdeeBen · Nov 22, 2011

With 15 blinds left, you should be shoving wider than normal, if the BB is tight then shoving is profitable in most cases.

TeUnit · Nov 26, 2011

with 15 blinds in a vacuum

22,A2,K6,K2s,Q9,Q4s,J9,J6s,T8,T6s,98,96s,85s,75s,64s,54s

but there are so many other considerations:
1. tourney equity
2. tightness looseness of bb
3. your image
4. and your edge, ie if you are phil ivey you dont need to shove 15bbs

gl at the tables,

t

kissapig · Nov 29, 2011

Playing MTT halfway into the tourn.
Im the SS at the table with 15 BB.
Im thinking about going all-in. I want to be selective and wait for a few cycles until have the right hole cards.
If I get under 10BB then I will shove any two hole cards.
What range of hole cards should I shove with at 15 BB?
I thinking any pair over 66 or any two cards with A, K , Q, J combined.
What do you think?
Poker School Online has a nice couple of charts that will show you the recommended starting cards for various levels of BB.

BlueNowhere · Nov 29, 2011

First off sometimes it's worth putting yourself at risk so you can maintain a stack with FE.

Most of the time the blinds can't adjust because they don't know you're doing it with ATC until you've done it a fair few times in a row. Usually we don't get to see an unopened pot so unless the Blind is defending with say JTs due to previous history or he knows you'll make the correct play then he isn't going to adjust to it. Also he probably overadjusts as most people tend to do so it's still profitable.

spunka · Nov 30, 2011

dlam said:
Playing MTT halfway into the tourn.
Im the SS at the table with 15 BB.
Im thinking about going all-in. I want to be selective and wait for a few cycles until have the right hole cards.
If I get under 10BB then I will shove any two hole cards.
What range of hole cards should I shove with at 15 BB?
I thinking any pair over 66 or any two cards with A, K , Q, J combined.
What do you think?

That range looks very "old fashioned" to me.
You don't play ranges so much if you're shoving, as you don't expect a call and only go for picking up the blinds.

So you can shove any hand as long as the players behind you are tight and the sooner you start robbing their blinds the better.

If we look at your range I think you need Ax in there.

But shoving is very depending on the read you have on the players to act after you.

Suggestions when to shove as the SS

dlam

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fletchdad

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Poker Orifice

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dj11

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baudib1

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dlam

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dlam

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dlam

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fletchdad

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