Suggestions for finishing deeper in MTTs?

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midni7e7oker

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Normally a cash game player, but lately I've found MTT's to be really fun. I've also found that it's waaaay different than the cash games I play. In the past few weeks I keep making deep runs, but usually end up finishing either just out of the money, or getting to the minimum winnings. I know it's probably next to impossible to give me advice since I don't have any hand histories. I guess I'm looking for pointers, tips, maybe resources on adjusting strategies throughout tournament stages and other stuff that I'm not even thinking of.

Thanks!

thatoneguy
 
Alucard

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If you are a decent cash game player, then I'd say you have enough discipline to go deep in MTTs. The best advice I could give is to read strategy articles. MTT play changes from early, mid,late, bubble period & FT play.

Try the pokerschoolonline MTT course & read cardschat strategy articles. (Top left corner next to the tab "Forum")
And add those stuff to your game.
+ have some good reads o the opponents & take advantage of position.

But sometimes it just comes down to variance and the cards you get so there's nothing to do about those stuff.
 
froggeedogs

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patience and pick your moments wisely. i just made the bubble yesterday in one with almost 7500 people and managed to finish 32. couldn't really believe i lasted that long...........half decent cards help as well......lol
 
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How is your stack when you finish out of the money or you just min-cash? Are you sitting on a very low stack, folding a lot and just trying to get pass the bubble?

If so, you're likely tightening up near the bubble stages and the blinds+antes are eating at your stack a lot. Key thing to remember is that min-cashing is nothing. How bad is it to lose a buy-in or two not min-cashing? Not that bad. So, when you're getting closer to the bubble, play more aggressive and attack those players who are folding a lot and tightening up to make the money.

At the bubble stages, don't be afraid to play for big stacks, even if it means busting out sometimes. If you have a big hand like AK, 1010-AA, don't be afraid to play or 20-30 BBs all in preflop to build a big stack. Big stacks are going to get you further and you want a big stack when you do reach the final table. You only need 1 good run at the final table with a big stack to make up for the times you've played for big stacks and lost. That's why min-cashing doesn't matter because running deep once will always be more profitable than min cashing a bunch of times.

Finally, if you're card dead and/or up against really aggressive players at the bubble/mid-late stages and your stack is getting shorter, don't be afraid to play back. Just don't let your stack fall too short before you do. Never be afraid to play back against an aggressor with and aggressive play yourself.
 
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midni7e7oker

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Just a quick update for anyone who might've looked at this thread. ohshootmybad's speculation hit the nail on the head, so I went back and looked at hand histories from previous tournaments and could easily pick out the spots where I played too passively in position nearing the bubble. I studied my mistakes, started poring over articles on the various stages of tournament play. Then I decided to put it into practice in a freeroll rewarding satellite tickets.

Once I neared the bubble I started to get really anxious, but I took that as a good sign that I was ready to put what meager info I've learned into practice. The first couple of position raises literally had me sweating, but it started to feel less threatening the more I did it. Long story short, the tournament of 1700 ended as soon as 31 got knocked out (1-30 got tickets). I ended up 4-5th in stack size.

Just wanted to say thanks for the insights and suggestions and reading material. Who would've guessed that study and application could lead to positive results.
 
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The fact that Alucard says this shows that he is a tournament player who thinks too highly of the cash game player's ability to comprehend pace.

In cash games a good hand is a good hand and a bad hand is bad, in a tournament a hand with few people is much better than otherwise and definitely playable (even 6 4 is playable if you've been tight, bluffing will be very easy unless they raise huge into you).

Tournaments are 10% cards, 90% psychology. You want people to kill each other off and want to be 'in and out' of hands in between killer hands rather than being the one to go all-in at any stage. Play for second place and imagine that by letting people knock each other out you gain.

In reality, when blinds get big enough, you need to be a killer yourself or you will die. Once stacks are that shallow, overplay hands or YOU WILL BE CALLED BY LOOSE BIG STACKS who WILL PLAY TO OUTDRAW YOU.

Tournaments are not a reliable source of income if your Internet, emotions and life in general (sister, boss or friend needing your help suddenly). If you are not willing to literally sit for 4 hours minimum at ONCE GAME with FULL FOCUS the entire time to take advantage of countless tiny profitable squeeze scenarios, then you will later on ask 'how do i go deeper in this MTT' but that's because your stack would be bigger if you played the entire time with full force focus.

If you have any symptoms of the disorders ADD or ADHD, do not try to stick at MTTs for regular income. Daniel Negreanu does not have ADHD he has non-verbal tourette's that makes him appear jumpy (eye blinking, head shaking at random etc) but mentally he is a very calm monster and this is the personality type that does best in long tournaments. I am a very inattentive 'burst focus' person who used to have Internet that cut out at random every hour but now has better internet that cuts about 3 times a day at most. I also have a family who sometimes need me to help with chores etc and if I notice myself missing a hand across my 2-4 tables when I'm grinding I immediately close all, take a deep breath and watch a netflix episode/movie or just listen to music to relax. I also find that caffeine helps you play cash games but makes you play tournaments worse which means you can't boost your endurance in any way as you need full long-term focus that can't turn 'on and off' in any way.
 
Alucard

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You're the boss. No point in arguing with you

On a side note I play more cash than tournament and I do well in tournaments as well. Go check who's no.1 in cardschat leaderboard non us sites this month.
 
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You're the boss. No point in arguing with you

On a side note I play more cash than tournament and I do well in tournaments as well. Go check who's no.1 in cardschat leaderboard non us sites this month.
You think too highly of cash game players it is the truth. Cash game players don't comprehend pacing of tournaments without learning it all on its own.
 
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I play cash games to supplement my regular income and I'm really just beginning to discover the MTT beast. I like that MTTs require attentiveness and endurance. And I think I get what you mean about needing to have that killer instinct in later stages, in that I should play to win the whole thing rather than to merely finish ITM. The latter mentality, I've noticed, automatically puts me into conservative mode when I should, with larger blinds, be playing the aggressor. To be honest, I've always known poker to be a psychological endeavor, but never from such an introspective viewpoint. This is enlightening.
 
Alucard

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You think too highly of cash game players it is the truth. Cash game players don't comprehend pacing of tournaments without learning it all on its own.

what I'm trying to say cash players do know the actual value of the hands more often than tournament players & get good reads on opponents. This becomes very important in early game as well as you are deep enough to see more hands. Sometimes people try to bully too much with their bigger stacks and loose many chips in the process because they overvalue their top pairs or middle pairs. Sometimes it make hard to walk away from a pot that's very big even though you know you are beat. This is when cash discipline comes to play. At least for me.

Of course it comes down to pacing of the tournaments as I mentioned in my previous post. You have to adjust situationally on those periods. You cannot play the same way you did at early stage of the tournament in the bubble & FT.

You have to adjust your play to your stack, the villain, the villain's stack, the position, & the stage of the tournament.
 
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what I'm trying to say cash players do know the actual value of the hands more often than tournament players & get good reads on opponents. This becomes very important in early game as well as you are deep enough to see more hands. Sometimes people try to bully too much with their bigger stacks and loose many chips in the process because they overvalue their top pairs or middle pairs. Sometimes it make hard to walk away from a pot that's very big even though you know you are beat. This is when cash discipline comes to play. At least for me.

Of course it comes down to pacing of the tournaments as I mentioned in my previous post. You have to adjust situationally on those periods. You cannot play the same way you did at early stage of the tournament in the bubble & FT.

You have to adjust your play to your stack, the villain, the villain's stack, the position, & the stage of the tournament.
The discipline is to get higher placing, not to gain the most chips at a specific time necessarily.

In cash games you ALWAYS want to maximise winnings and minimise losses, in tournaments you sometimes need to be a little afraid to maximise what may be a loss and need to be worried about playing too small as this could be a crucial bluff that will benefit you greatly allowing you fold the next 6 hands that you'd be too desperate to fold if you don't bluff for the pot right then and there. This thinking never arises in cash games ever and if you think like that in cash games, you will break even or go bankrupt.
 
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I play cash games to supplement my regular income and I'm really just beginning to discover the MTT beast. I like that MTTs require attentiveness and endurance. And I think I get what you mean about needing to have that killer instinct in later stages, in that I should play to win the whole thing rather than to merely finish ITM. The latter mentality, I've noticed, automatically puts me into conservative mode when I should, with larger blinds, be playing the aggressor. To be honest, I've always known poker to be a psychological endeavor, but never from such an introspective viewpoint. This is enlightening.
Endurance is important but part of endurance is building bigger as the blinds increase which means risking getting smaller in order to gain.
 
imnoobpoker

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One tip I had to learn: Round the bubble: just fold every hand :O I had so many times AA, KK or AK and tried to value those hands round the bubble -> I became the bubble man many times. But yeah, at the end it depends on my stack of my chips. Most of the time I'm the middle man with chips in a tournament and not the top 3. So I have to be really carefully using my chips.
 
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One tip I had to learn: Round the bubble: just fold every hand :O I had so many times AA, KK or AK and tried to value those hands round the bubble -> I became the bubble man many times. But yeah, at the end it depends on my stack of my chips. Most of the time I'm the middle man with chips in a tournament and not the top 3. So I have to be really carefully using my chips.
...... You are not playing a KK at bubble LOL why not try?
 
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Normally a cash game player, but lately I've found MTT's to be really fun. I've also found that it's waaaay different than the cash games I play. In the past few weeks I keep making deep runs, but usually end up finishing either just out of the money, or getting to the minimum winnings. I know it's probably next to impossible to give me advice since I don't have any hand histories. I guess I'm looking for pointers, tips, maybe resources on adjusting strategies throughout tournament stages and other stuff that I'm not even thinking of.

Thanks!

thatoneguy

Study how to play a short stack - the best tournament players know what to do when they start getting low on chips. At some point in every tournament you will be low on chips: from bad beats, from going card-dead, or just fast tournament structures.

There are a lot of opinions out there (and everyone is THE BEST), but if you put in the time to learn what hands you can profitably shove with first in the pot when short-stacked (and re-shove over loose-openers) you will be ahead of the game. Constantly growing your stack at escalating blind levels is an art form that few master.

The people with random sayings and pseudo-strategy can lead others astray all they want, but if you know what hands you can shove with this many players to act behind you, for various big blind stacks, they will become some of your best friends.

With enough practice and experience you will start to get deeper runs and better results.

Good luck to you! :D
 
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Normally a cash game player, but lately I've found MTT's to be really fun. I've also found that it's waaaay different than the cash games I play. In the past few weeks I keep making deep runs, but usually end up finishing either just out of the money, or getting to the minimum winnings. I know it's probably next to impossible to give me advice since I don't have any hand histories. I guess I'm looking for pointers, tips, maybe resources on adjusting strategies throughout tournament stages and other stuff that I'm not even thinking of.

Thanks!

thatoneguy
I think you have to look at various factors, and then adjust your strategy accordingly. I would break my analysis down firstly by field size (small say < 100), large >100 and less < 500 and mega > 500 for example). Secondly I would break it down by buy-in (Freeroll, small buy in, medium and high).

It seems like a lot to do, but without even realizing it, you are probably better in one or two groupings, that suite your style of play, poker bank rolland time constraints. If you play a tourn that digs big into your bankroll, do you play differently ? Scared money can't win !

My feeling is that in a lot of freeroll/small buyins, the bad players (low hanging fruit) are numerous at the beginning of the tourn. You need to get your share of these easy chips, because they will give you breathing room in the mid part, and hopefully carry you to the later part in good shape.

If it means opening your range slightly early, and being more speculative then so be it. If getting involved here cripples you early too bad. Your goal is to get to the MID part of the tourn, well ahead of the average, in good shape. Then you have some freedom, to pick off the small stacks who are now falling under blind pressure. You can now play a bit, because losing a smallish pot will not cripple you.

Rather be crippled earlier, than hang on by a thread for hours. Hanging on is an irritating way to play. You only have 2 decisions. ALL-IN or fold which is also very limiting. It is also annoying to waste 2 hours hanging on, when probably 80% of the time you will get knocked out before the big money in any case. It is a pointless, annoying, time wasting, irritating, soul destroying exercise that normally generates negative mental vibes.
 
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I think you have to look at various factors, and then adjust your strategy accordingly. I would break my analysis down firstly by field size (small say < 100), large >100 and less < 500 and mega > 500 for example). Secondly I would break it down by buy-in (Freeroll, small buy in, medium and high).

It seems like a lot to do, but without even realizing it, you are probably better in one or two groupings, that suite your style of play, poker bank rolland time constraints. If you play a tourn that digs big into your bankroll, do you play differently ? Scared money can't win !

My feeling is that in a lot of freeroll/small buyins, the bad players (low hanging fruit) are numerous at the beginning of the tourn. You need to get your share of these easy chips, because they will give you breathing room in the mid part, and hopefully carry you to the later part in good shape.

If it means opening your range slightly early, and being more speculative then so be it. If getting involved here cripples you early too bad. Your goal is to get to the MID part of the tourn, well ahead of the average, in good shape. Then you have some freedom, to pick off the small stacks who are now falling under blind pressure. You can now play a bit, because losing a smallish pot will not cripple you.

Rather be crippled earlier, than hang on by a thread for hours. Hanging on is an irritating way to play. You only have 2 decisions. ALL-IN or fold which is also very limiting. It is also annoying to waste 2 hours hanging on, when probably 80% of the time you will get knocked out before the big money in any case. It is a pointless, annoying, time wasting, irritating, soul destroying exercise that normally generates negative mental vibes.
And this is one of many issues with people who don't rely on cash games for their profit.
 
imnoobpoker

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...... You are not playing a KK at bubble LOL why not try?



Because I have always bad luck and I tried a lot of times in the past. But at the end I busted out to many times. That those chips I miss by not playing the hand are not worth busting out
 
darthdimsky

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...... You are not playing a KK at bubble LOL why not try?

What wrong with a KK fold on the bubble? Explain. Even an AA fold is warranted when:


  • You've got a severely crippled stack
  • You already have a multi-way all in before you
Why is this irrational?
 
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What wrong with a KK fold on the bubble? Explain. Even an AA fold is warranted when:


  • You've got a severely crippled stack
  • You already have a multi-way all in before you
Why is this irrational?
You can get crippled more and forced allin with a much worse hand later on, bubble still in tact... genius.
 
darthdimsky

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You can get crippled more and forced allin with a much worse hand later on, bubble still in tact... genius.

No, you are at the bubble. You'll want to pick the general 1.5x buy-in and go bust with a crappy hand than bust to a multiway pot with A's. It's a +CeV call. Genius yes, because that's what many proven poker players recommend, with a lot of detailed thought and logic. You give a lot of advice on MTTs but these are some fundamentals that you have yet to grasp.
 
imnoobpoker

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No, you are at the bubble. You'll want to pick the general 1.5x buy-in and go bust with a crappy hand than bust to a multiway pot with A's. It's a +CeV call. Genius yes, because that's what many proven poker players recommend. You give a lot of advice on MTTs but these are some fundamentals that you have yet to grasp.

You are right! I only play those hands AA or KK etc on the bubble, when I can miss the chips. When I'm top 10 of the poker tournament and there is no possibility of busting out by doing something crazy. But yeah, I play micro stack poker and so many people go all-in with donk hands... I like to see my buy-in back on my PS account.
 
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The topic mentioned below is very controversial: wether to fold cards on bubble or to be more aggrasive in order to steal from thos who are trembling, wether to be all-in player at the very beggining of the tourney shoving ur every second hand or to be more cautious fox in the wait of your victim. As I've understood there is no one answer, however as a newbie I would thank the person, who tells me how to play over 5000 persons freerolls? Is there any methodology or is it simmilar to all pieces of advice given in the thread? :confused:
Thx a lot!:)
 
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I've got to say, bubble play is crucial. It moves slowly around the bubble and there is a lot of scared money. Bad luck in the past (aka variance) when you are close tot the bubble and have a strong holding (AK, KK, AA, etc) is not indication of future performance and to not play is stupid. To not play in to action is different, and when you're short playing in to multiple raises/calls, folding can be the +EV move as your raise likely won't push people out of the pot, you're likely playing against good holdings and as more people enter the pot, despite your monster holding, your chance to win decreases. But bubble play is a great place to get aggressive and move your chips in when you're in position and able to isolate the scared money
 
Kurtimus

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What wrong with a KK fold on the bubble? Explain. Even an AA fold is warranted when:


  • You've got a severely crippled stack
  • You already have a multi-way all in before you
Why is this irrational?
Folding aces preflop is never plus EV. The bubble doesnt change that. Do you want to cash or do you want to win? The correct answer is win. Most of the winnings go to the top 3 places in most tournaments. Its worth the risk of bubbling to give yourself the best chance at the big money. There are few certainties in poker, but never folding aces preflop is one.
 
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