success at c-betting

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zingbust

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early in an MTT I have had no success at all with c-betting lately, in or out of position. Basically, if I don't have anything and I make a continuation bet, I get called or check-raised nearly 100% of the time. When I do have something big, they fold nearly 100% of the time. How are today's players so good that they can actually "see" my cards and know whether I'm bluffing or not. It didn't used to be this way, but now it is. On the rare occasions I decide to make a hero call because I have top pair strong kicker or something like that, they have me beat nearly 100% of the time also. It doesn't seem possible that my opponents hit the flop so hard almost 100% of the time, yet every time I 3 and 4-bet them, they don't back down, they have a nut or near-nut hand. How is it possible that opponents can hit so often, or know with almost 100% certainty that I will fold to their check-raise or their float bet? I'm not talking big buy-ins either, I'm talking right on down to the smallest $1.10 buy-ins.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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ahhhhh.....the old Cbet. I miss the days when a Cbet used to work more often.

so, I think there are a couple of factors at play here.

1) the technical skill you are applying when you Cbet (frequencies, board texture, bet sizing etc.)

2) As you move up the limits Cbets are less likely to "work". however since they are practically expected, the calling of a cbet doesn't necessarily mean anything either...it's almost like the "real" Cbet happens on the turn now when you are playing against tougher opponents...

3) even in the lower limits Cbets are just not a secret anymore. almost every player who has done any study of the game knows about Cbets.

Now, all that said it doesn't mean Cbets are bad, or that you should give them up...they just have a lower +EV than they used to. I think if you are doing it well, they are still +EV though.

here are the guidelines I apply to my Cbetting.

First off, I only Cbet "bluff" in heads up pots, or very occasionally in 3 way pots. I don't think naked Cbets are very profitable in multi way pots. Even in heads up pots, I only Cbet most of the time, not all of the time.

I use 2/3 as my rule of thumb for the Cbet. so 2/3 of the time I'll Cbet 2/3 of the pot.

how do I pick my 2/3 of flops to Cbet? I go based on texture. Cbets are more successful on dry flops, and hit or miss flops. Beware of any flop that has 2 cards 9 or higher. Now, that doesn't mean you CAN'T Cbet, it just means I carefully evaluate the other variables to see if this is a good flop to Cbet on.

examples of good flops to Cbet:

893

J52

QQ7

44K

etc.

examples of potentially bad flops to Cbet

9JQ with a flush draw

678 with a flush draw

ATx

another good thing about Cbets is in addition to sometimes winning you a pot you don't deserve, it gets you action on your hands the times that you do hit. If you rarely to never Cbet, then opponents could play perfect poker against you by knowing that you play straightforward "fit or fold" poker.
 
WeenieSVK

WeenieSVK

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No the whole world isnt against you, No poker site dont want you to lose. Its just your selective mind, If you think you are worse almost 100% of the times. Or you are just talking about small amount of games where you got unlucky...
 
BearPlay

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If you rarely to never Cbet, then opponents could play perfect poker against you by knowing that you play straightforward "fit or fold" poker.

Solid advice here, which I learned the hard way. You have to change it up; the last thing you want is to be predictable and therefore exploitable.
 
Daniel72

Daniel72

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yes rough times

mix it up, don´t c-bet if you hit

or try the so called delayed c-bet
 
LD1977

LD1977

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It is a math issue range vs. range to some extent.

If you missed, it is likely someone else hit something.
If you hit, you are blocking some hands that also could hit so you get slightly more folds.

Such is life, deal with it.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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I think poker is an awesome game because of the meta. Even at the lowest stakes, people are aware of c-betting and try to defend it from time to time.

Along with board texture, you should also take into consideration your opponents wen c-betting. If the turn card is no help, you may even want to fire a second barrel.

Make sure you normalize your play pre-flop. You could be giving information about your hand away by raising different amounts. Always try to see what kind of story you are telling to your opponents. If you have a super tight image, then betting out on a board with middle/low cards wont be too believable. Even if you get called, you may still have the best hand.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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examples of potentially bad flops to Cbet

9JQ with a flush draw

678 with a flush draw

ATx
I don't know that I'd call ATx a bad flop to cbet. Assuming I've open-raised pre-, big aces are obviously in my range. I'd expect opponents to think I'd cbet if I actually had say AK or AQ. And indeed I would cbet most of the time. So shouldn't I also cbet fairly often when I don't have an A?
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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I don't know that I'd call ATx a bad flop to cbet. Assuming I've open-raised pre-, big aces are obviously in my range. I'd expect opponents to think I'd cbet if I actually had say AK or AQ. And indeed I would cbet most of the time. So shouldn't I also cbet fairly often when I don't have an A?

wait....for....the....cliche....

it's situational ;)

but my alarm bells go off anytime there is an A on the flop (even when I have one)

the 2nd card in the deck that gets my blood pumping is a T. Why? I guess it's reflex from what a coach told me long ago...that A and T are the most commonly played cards in the deck and so if a flop has an A or a T then lookout cuz SOMEBODY likes that flop. But if a flop has both an A and a T then bet at your own risk.

lets consider a AT8 rainbow flop.

who likes this flop? (at least a little)

AA
TT
88
AT
A8
T8
AK
AQ
AJ
A9
KQ
KJ
KT
QJ
QT
JT
J9
J8
T9
97
98

....and there's not even a flush draw....and I didn't even include the weaker Aces that might still like it...

basically the only playable hands that don't at least KINDA like this flop are small pocket pairs and small suited connectors. (hell...even 67 has a gutshot!)

but still...I'm not saying DON'T cbet this flop....I'm saying stop and consider all the variables. If it's multiway and I'm OOP as the preflop raiser with AQ I'll just check call on a flop like this. (or check-fold if the fireworks go off between 2 other players)

If it's multiway and it's checked to me as the preflop raiser and I have something like KQ, I might just take my free card to draw at broadway. because in a multiway pot SOMEBODY likes this flop.

If your opponent(s) is capable of putting you on a range and then making a tight fold and you can represent the A, then by all means Cbet this flop.

In a multiway pot here, I'm almost never betting out (lead or no lead) unless I have A8 or better. pot control pot control pot control

that's my take on AT flops anyways...
 
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H

hffjd2000

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Because they are using third party softwares.

They know your tendencies and betting patterns.

To combat this, change your style. Do this cheaply of course. You want to jumble things (wreck the data) so that they will be confused at reading you.

Im not using any but Im aware they are looking at my stats. Ill just reverse things and boommm...
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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it's situational ;).
Agreed. I didn't say I think ATx is a good flop to cbet. But it's not bad either, at least not bad enough to put it in the same ballpark as your other two "bad" examples.
 
DonV73

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early in an MTT I have had no success at all with c-betting lately, in or out of position. Basically, if I don't have anything and I make a continuation bet, I get called or check-raised nearly 100% of the time. When I do have something big, they fold nearly 100% of the time. How are today's players so good that they can actually "see" my cards and know whether I'm bluffing or not.

I experienced the same thing once too but found out that I had actually been cbetting way too much and I was stuck in this mindset. If you do the same thing everytime, for example cbetting 100% when there is a Ace on the flop, then cbets are a lot less strong.

Could that also be your case?
 
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