stupid races

B

barney99

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Total posts
3
Chips
0
Hello, I am new to this forum and this is my first post/thread. I was just wondering if anyone here could give me some advice on how they play the latter stages of a tournament. By this I mean when there is roughly 10-30 players left deep into a mtt. This is because (I am a winning player) I regularly make it this far, and a huge % of the time I seem to bust in this position. This is usually as a result of a coin toss, and I very rarely get it in behind. Should I be waiting for better spots? Am I just running quite bad? I don't really no the answer. I am fine playing early stages of a tournie and once I'm on final table my results are usually pretty good. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.
 
steveiam

steveiam

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Total posts
3,625
Chips
0
If you are getting it in ahead then you are playing well. You will cross the line soon and the cards will eventually turn your way..Over the long run you are +ev.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
If you're only getting it in ahead, you're not getting it in enough.
 
aero87

aero87

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Total posts
283
Chips
0
Do you mostly play faster blind formats? When blinds are that big and people do not have deep enough stacks, its pretty common. Its mostly a preflop shove or fold. Not much "playing poker"

You just have to get it in best you can and hope for the best.
 
F

Flsnookman

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Total posts
209
Chips
0
I feel if I am playing against players who are better than me thats when I want to race. If I feel I am better I would rather draw it out some. Welcome and hope this helps.
 
M

Macaroon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Total posts
238
Awards
1
GB
Chips
107
If you're only getting it in ahead, you're not getting it in enough.

I've seen this advice several times on forums, though never in magazines or books written by pros. I can't understand the logic. I understand that it assumes that if you're usually ahead then you're playing too tight; but surely that must mean that if you're usually behind then you're playing too loosely. Perhaps someone could explain the logic?

PS. How do I get the quote into the shaded box?
 
steveiam

steveiam

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Total posts
3,625
Chips
0
I would rather be getting it in ahead than behind every day of the week.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Total posts
1,190
Chips
0
If you're only getting it in ahead, you're not getting it in enough.

I've seen this advice several times on forums, though never in magazines or books written by pros. I can't understand the logic. I understand that it assumes that if you're usually ahead then you're playing too tight; but surely that must mean that if you're usually behind then you're playing too loosely. Perhaps someone could explain the logic?

PS. How do I get the quote into the shaded box?

Uhh, what.

There is a wide space between ALWAYS getting it in ahead and usually getting it in behind.

Within that space optimal play exists.

If you are never, or almost never getting it in with the worst of it, you are almost CERTAINLY playing very poorly with a short stack especially.

You should be- with say a 13-20BB stack-moving in with hands like Ax and 44 a lot.....over people's raises...of course sometimes they will wake up with JJ or KK and you will SOMETIMES be taking the worst of it.

Not sure why this is hard to grasp.
 
FlowJoe

FlowJoe

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Total posts
142
Awards
1
Chips
0
@Macaroon...you click "quote" and the quote will be placed in the response box.
 
BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 19, 2012
Total posts
271
Chips
0
If you're only getting it in ahead, you're not getting it in enough.

I've seen this advice several times on forums, though never in magazines or books written by pros. I can't understand the logic. I understand that it assumes that if you're usually ahead then you're playing too tight; but surely that must mean that if you're usually behind then you're playing too loosely. Perhaps someone could explain the logic?

PS. How do I get the quote into the shaded box?

For example, 8BB's on the button with 89s, if both villains play let's say 10/10, it's a very clear shove, BUT if they call you you will be behind 100% of the times, this doesn't change the fact that it's a +EV shove.
 
hobonc

hobonc

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2010
Total posts
854
Chips
0
Uhh, what.

There is a wide space between ALWAYS getting it in ahead and usually getting it in behind.

Within that space optimal play exists.

To get the quote in the shaded box then click on the "quote" button in the lower right hand portion of their comment box. What are you a dummy? ...just kidding with you, LOL

If you are never, or almost never getting it in with the worst of it, you are almost CERTAINLY playing very poorly with a short stack especially.

You should be- with say a 13-20BB stack-moving in with hands like Ax and 44 a lot.....over people's raises...of course sometimes they will wake up with JJ or KK and you will SOMETIMES be taking the worst of it.

Not sure why this is hard to grasp.

I agree with the premise of your comment but if I may repectfully critique part of it, the first and last sentences aren't really necessary. They sound condecending and could discourage the original poster from seeking knowlege that he truely doesn't understand.
 
Last edited:
M

Macaroon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Total posts
238
Awards
1
GB
Chips
107
Thanks for the 'Quote' explanation. I had tried that but it didn't seem to work. It does now, though, I think.

You should be- with say a 13-20BB stack-moving in with hands like Ax and 44 a lot.....over people's raises...of course sometimes they will wake up with JJ or KK and you will SOMETIMES be taking the worst of it.

I understand this. But in the micro tournaments I play a raise pre-flop (unless from a desperate stack or a huge stack) almost always seems to mean a big hand - either a big Ace or a pair. So re-raising all-in with Ax would almost always mean going in behind - assuming villain calls, which he would with a big Ace or a pair. I suppose I just don't like being knocked out of a tourney, after two hours, playing a sub-standard hand. That would annoy me more than getting a bad beat.

Of course it largely depends on the size of the other stacks whether I re-raise with Ax. My point is that if I am called I will be behind more times that in front.

Almost all the recent advice from pros and journalists in magazines is to make the correct decisions (ie always get in ahead) and hope it will pay off. I suppose this is what makes poker so interesting.

NO - THE QUOTE BIT HASN'T WORKED!
 
Last edited:
I

indahood193

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
445
Chips
0
as other people have said, maybe you are playing too tight? and therefor when you shove with your 9's with 8 bb's or whatever, and get called by ace x and get sucked out on, you have no chips left because you haven't been stealing enough. your aim shouldn't be to fold your way into the top 50 or whatever from 200 left, it should be continuing to play the same way you have all tournament- accumulating chips with steals/ re-steals and aggression. of course in a big mtt you are going to lose some flips and hands you are favourite in, you just need to have chips left over to grind back up your stack.
 
hobonc

hobonc

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2010
Total posts
854
Chips
0
Hey Mac....say for instance you wanted to respond to indahood's comment. The very first thing you would do is click on the "Quote" button in the lower right hand corner of that comment box. This will pop up a reply box with his comment in it along with the html code needed to make it appear properly in your comment. All you would need to do is put the cursor in a new line (not beside the html code) and then do just as you did with the other comments you have made.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
If you're only getting it in ahead, you're not getting it in enough.


This.


Basically; if you are only ever flipping or getting it in good, then you're doing it wrong.


With tons of the dead money in the middle, really effective average stacks and plenty of good spots that come up, you should be shoving to steal a ton and mixing in 3B steal shoves against active late steals and calling lighter in spots. Obviously; if you have a nit opening, then 3bet shoving is going to be bad.

Shoving/calling only for value towards the latter stages of the tournament is a leak.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
I would rather be getting it in ahead than behind every day of the week.

If you are getting it in ahead then you are playing well. You will cross the line soon and the cards will eventually turn your way..Over the long run you are +ev.


Not to feel like I'm constantly jumping on your comments steve but I feel I do have to give my opinion most times you comment so hope I don't offend you because it does feel like I quote every message you put in every thread...

Anyway,

Sure, getting it in good is +EV..However for example it's not going to be -EV to be shoving in a spot with Q5s and being called by AA where you might class that as a -EV play because we got it in bad.

Calling/shoving light or with worse hands in spots is +EV a lot of the time...not just -EV because you got your chips in bad.

I feel you seem to think it's only +EV play to stack someone when you hold the better hand. That is so far from the truth; and as stated from my previous post; if you only call/get it in good then you're major bad things in previous hands and missing up on spots which are a LOT more +EV than waiting for a value hand to shove/call. Taking more spots in tournaments will show a better expectation as opposed to folding/waiting for the nuts.
 
M

Macaroon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Total posts
238
Awards
1
GB
Chips
107
For example, 8BB's on the button with 89s, if both villains play let's say 10/10, it's a very clear shove, BUT if they call you you will be behind 100% of the times, this doesn't change the fact that it's a +EV shove.

Not sure what 10/10 means but in the micros I play a raise followed by a call (except in the latter stages of a tourney) almost always means a pair or a large Ace. So I would be reluctant to go all-in with 89s if that is what is advised, knowing that if one of them called (which they certainly would) I would likely be knocked out.

Of course I understand the premise that one must take risks in the latter stages of a tourney. And I would (and have) happily go all-in with 72o provided I considered that the stackes still to call would be crippled if they lost and are not desprate enough to call with air.

And I understand that sometimes one will get into a showdown behind. But it still seems illogical to me to suggest that if a player gets all-in and is almost always ahead then he is not playing the best he can.

I'm not trying to be awkward. I just can't see the logic. I guess I am a lost cause!
 
N

Novify

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 2, 2013
Total posts
29
Chips
0
I think, that at any stage of the tournament plays a major role luck and intuition
 
steveiam

steveiam

CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Total posts
3,625
Chips
0
Not to feel like I'm constantly jumping on your comments steve but I feel I do have to give my opinion most times you comment so hope I don't offend you because it does feel like I quote every message you put in every thread...

Anyway,

Sure, getting it in good is +EV..However for example it's not going to be -EV to be shoving in a spot with Q5s and being called by AA where you might class that as a -EV play because we got it in bad.

Calling/shoving light or with worse hands in spots is +EV a lot of the time...not just -EV because you got your chips in bad.

I feel you seem to think it's only +EV play to stack someone when you hold the better hand. That is so far from the truth; and as stated from my previous post; if you only call/get it in good then you're major bad things in previous hands and missing up on spots which are a LOT more +EV than waiting for a value hand to shove/call. Taking more spots in tournaments will show a better expectation as opposed to folding/waiting for the nuts.
I fully understand that sometimes you will be getting it in behind. All im saying is i would rather be in front..I have gone deep and won several times with having to get it in behind. So i dont take offence with any of your comments.
 
M

Macaroon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Total posts
238
Awards
1
GB
Chips
107
as other people have said, maybe you are playing too tight? and therefor when you shove with your 9's with 8 bb's or whatever, and get called by ace x and get sucked out on, you have no chips left because you haven't been stealing enough. your aim shouldn't be to fold your way into the top 50 or whatever from 200 left, it should be continuing to play the same way you have all tournament- accumulating chips with steals/ re-steals and aggression. of course in a big mtt you are going to lose some flips and hands you are favourite in, you just need to have chips left over to grind back up your stack.

I suspect that many posters agree with this. But assuming that getting it in ahead most of the time is playing too tightly is ridiculous. Indahood (above) is assuming that if I go all-in with 99 and get called by Ax and get beat then I have no chips left 'because I haven't been stealing enough.'

You simply can't assume that someone who is usually ahead at showdown is always short of chips. That's crazy. It's possible to play online for an hour and bet just three times, always getting in ahead, and doubling your stack each time. The big decision is to make sure that your first win gets you enough chips to allow you to have a little leeway.

And one should not assume that somone who is playing tightly is going to 'fold their way into the top 50 or whatever from 200 left.' Playing tightly doean't mean folding against every raise - it means picking the hands one wishes to go to war with.

However I respect the advice indahood has given. But giving oneself the best chance of winning pots is surely the object of the game!

I'm just very glad that so many players don't understand TAG.
.
 
Top