Stupid moves, late stage, many hours of play

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neafana

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Hi guys,


It has happened to you when you have a lot of hours of play in MTT's, minimum 10 hours, to make mistakes like the one below?


I was having more than 14 hours of MTT's and I was in the last 20 of a micro MTT.
Blinds 3500/7000
UTG+1 with 50BB minraised, cutoff calls and me with JJ, 30BB, decided to shove, since both players were very active. In my mind I was 80% sure that they will fold and I will collect the money. UTG+1 had QQ and I was eliminated.


After 5 minutes I realized that I had chosen the worst way to play the hand (excluding folding of course). I should call or 3 Bet. If I called, most probably I wouldn't go broke since an ace came on the flop.
 
ammje

ammje

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You can make mistakes when you are tired, so it is importan that you take a few seconds to make a decision.
In live poker, I have seen that players before an important play, take several seconds before acting.
 
nopainnogain

nopainnogain

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Too many hours my friend!I don't think that you had chosen the wrong way,you just had a tragedic decision that happens at final fase of a tourney.
 
terryk

terryk

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Villain happened to have 1 of the 3 hands that beats you there,,,very small odds that would happen.Unlucky is all that was,,,,:rolleyes: Maybe a little aggressive,but i`m sure that aggression is what got you there in the first place.;)
 
_420_420_

_420_420_

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When you are playing for that amount of time, you mind can get scrambled.
But you played the hand decently, Jacks are always a hard play
 
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karl coakley

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I've done the same, don't feel bad. You get tired and your hand looks really big. One of the things that really helped my game was to see flops. I ALWAYS try to see a flop and play my game rather than be sucked into other people's games.
 
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Mateo

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Yeah I mean probably shouldn't be a shove there with 30BB usually, but against their wide opening range it could be. Say they're min raising 30 % of hands, and calling your shove with 5 % of all hands (16.6 % of the 30 %), and say you win 30 % against that range, then youre equity is:

Equity =win they call - lose they call + win they fold = (0.166 * 0.3 * 33.5 BB) + (0.166 * 0.7 * -30bb)+(0.834*5.5BB) = 2.77 BB.

So actually with these assumptions it is a profitable shove, winning an average of 2.77 BB per time. You have a lot of fold equity against your shove becuse of theyre wide range that boosts your profitability here

Note that that calculation assumes you're only up against one of the villans. It is actually more complex with two, but should be fairly similar
 
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neafana

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Yeah I mean probably shouldn't be a shove there with 30BB usually, but against their wide opening range it could be. Say they're min raising 30 % of hands, and calling your shove with 5 % of all hands (16.6 % of the 30 %), and say you win 30 % against that range, then youre equity is:

Equity =win they call - lose they call + win they fold = (0.166 * 0.3 * 33.5 BB) + (0.166 * 0.7 * -30bb)+(0.834*5.5BB) = 2.77 BB.

So actually with these assumptions it is a profitable shove, winning an average of 2.77 BB per time. You have a lot of fold equity against your shove becuse of theyre wide range that boosts your profitability here

Note that that calculation assumes you're only up against one of the villans. It is actually more complex with two, but should be fairly similar


Thanks for this calculated answer:). In my mind I know it was profitable shove, but in the long run, for sure a call or a 3Bet it is more profitable because they had a wide opening range and you could force them to make mistakes postflop. Also most of the people remained where not so great, so in this cases you should not take flips for your life :)
 
poliaris747

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Hi! I have always said that fatigue in long tournaments makes players in the last stage of the game to play very carefully! But it's easy to say , but fatigue makes us more aggressive. Also, you didn't say how many chips you have and maybe you didn't have any other version of the game? Many circumstances affect your game.
 
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klada152

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I've done thousand mistakes like that.After hours of playing i lose my patience and concentration now i play much more sngs and less mtts.
 
Cam54

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I agree long hours like that are too much .... when I first started playing online .. I was so thrilled with all the new, shiny things that I had issues with that too .. I wanted to play literally round the clock .... that and small buy ins, in an MTT, I didn't feel I was hurting myself. It took time to see all the mistakes add up .... Now I will only play one MTT a day if I bust in 30 minutes or go to the final table doesn't matter, it helps keep my sanity. If I require more action I 'll find a cash game, .. even then if I find myself doing what I consider to be stupid things more than a couple times .. it's time to go. There is always something else to do, and it's my opinion that this is healthy for my game.

As far as the Jacks are concerned ..I'm not really a set miner ... I do .. but I feel it's way more of a small ball type approach, with say less than the big three, and I am trying to go in doing as little damage as I can to my stack... and it's just too easy to get owned by anyone playing say a K-2 Off on a lucky flop ... so I will try to just call them down as cheaply as I can ... and if I know that flop fell inside of someone's range like that K-2, that's giving that action... I am liable just to fold ... Just my opinion, kind of the way I like to play lower pocket pairs .... except when I feel I just have to mix things up for a little balance, then who knows what I may do : ) but rarely would I shove on them unimproved.
 
rikoberto

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Hi guys,


It has happened to you when you have a lot of hours of play in MTT's, minimum 10 hours, to make mistakes like the one below?


I was having more than 14 hours of MTT's and I was in the last 20 of a micro MTT.
Blinds 3500/7000
UTG+1 with 50BB minraised, cutoff calls and me with JJ, 30BB, decided to shove, since both players were very active. In my mind I was 80% sure that they will fold and I will collect the money. UTG+1 had QQ and I was eliminated.


After 5 minutes I realized that I had chosen the worst way to play the hand (excluding folding of course). I should call or 3 Bet. If I called, most probably I wouldn't go broke since an ace came on the flop.

It happens very often to everyone who grind a lot of hours to do smaller or bigger mistakes..For example,I catch many times myself loosing some easy spots,(like calling,value betting or bluffing spots) when i am multi-tabling or playing for 6-7 hours in a row..Its a leak i try to fix it..
So,about your hand now..Well,some hands like premium hands can be played in ''Auto-mode''..I mean by this, that you can reraise/shove without doing some huge mistake,no matter stacks(i talk in general)
As previous guy explained, JJ isnt some wrong shove,just its not the optimal way to play your range this way..Ofc you know it,thats why you post that hand..Well goodluck at tables and be more carefull in similar situations u will be soon:)
 
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Ofarah

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MTTs are a long fight until the end. Next time try to tighten up a bit more and see the final table where the pay jumps are a lot bigger. You also kind of answered your own question with the 3bet and then ace flop. QQ probably would’ve 4bet though putting you in a tough spot. Gl
 
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neafana

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Thanks for the answers. Now I realize that it was not a huge mistake, taking into consideration the opening range of the initial raiser.

Ofarah - If he would 4Bet me for sure, maybe I could find the fold button and remain with more than 20BB.
My problem with the shove was actually the fact that the remaining field was weak and I could use this to my advantage.
 
frankthebunny

frankthebunny

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Most of the time I make a good move in the late stages such as calling A/4 all in with A/K and wind up with a miraculous bad beat.
 
Justin Nichols

Justin Nichols

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not much choice really

you had thirty big BLINDS .. You were pretty much in the sledgehammer zone anyway .. If you pushed in early or mid position, maybe bad move... but pocket anything probally would of called and couldve got lucky and q-any k-any A- any even j 10 suited just got the wrong end of the luck stick...Make you feel better.
I just lost one was i first 14 ppl left and talking in a sec tourney hit enter to send the message called all in with 84 off suit against AA crippled me ended up out in 14 5 from money
 
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