STT Bubble Play

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WiZZiM

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Ok heres the situation you have a big stack of chips say 10k (player 1)in this hypothetical, you have two opponants with 4k(player 2 and 3) in chips and one player with 500 (player 4)in chips.. the blinds are 200/400.

player 4 is in the big blind its folded to you in the sb.. what to do?? obv its a good play to just shove anytwo cards here as you already have 200 invested and you just cant fold..

here i make the fold and gift player 4 200 chips to keep him alive.. why?

because of the situation at hand with one player at only 500 chips players 2,3 will not want to play many hands as they will want to make it into the money..

when i find myself in this situation i want to be raising all in every single hand, as i know players 2,3 cannot call without KK or AA..

so by keeping the shortstack alive longer, im taking the blinds off players 2,3.... the more blinds i take off them, the better chance ill have to win when it gets 3 handed
 
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LizzyJ

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I disagree with you on this one. If you have a chance to take out a player and pop the bubble, do it. I don't really like having people hanging around. There have been tons of STT where I let the SS hang around and then they double or triple up !!!! Now it's a new game. Or you try to steal and get caught, or the 2nd or 3rd people catches cards and now they are the big stack, there are just too many weird things that can go wrong when you let people hang around.
 
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TopDonk

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I agree with lizzy you should just bust the shortie and get down to 3 handed.

At lower stakes even more so where people just dont understand ICM or players 2or3 will just spite call you as its pretty obvious what your doing.

Also raising all in over and over will def make them snap call you lighter imo
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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when i find myself in this situation i want to be raising all in every single hand, as i know players 2,3 cannot call without KK or AA..

This is your failing with this strategy. If the middle stacks know their ICM they will be looking you up with more than AA/KK.
 
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TiltFish

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If player 4 only has 500 chips left you really should be putting him all in with any hand. It's only costing 300 to put him all in and even if you only win 1 in 4 hands you're still getting pretty good odds for the extra chips. Besides even if you lose, you'll make your chips back with one blind steal.
 
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RoTs

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There is a time and place for that tactic. If the 2 middle stacks are tight and don't adjust often enough then yes you can abuse it. If they have any common sense they may just open their calling range to adjust for your pushing range. Also the middle stacks may force the SS all in through your blind if they catch on to what your doing.
 
Poker Orifice

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This is your failing with this strategy. If the middle stacks know their ICM they will be looking you up with more than AA/KK.

More likely if they "don't" know about ICM.

I think OP here is just trying to get the principle/concept across about attacking the mid-sized stacks when there's a shortstack on the table and how you can really exploit this situation.....AND why keeping the shortstack alive can be very beneficial.
I disagree with the posts above (ie. Lizzy).. I don't think you're seeing the point (maybe you are? idk).. or maybe it's just because the example isn't the greatest to illustrate the principle.

The failing I see with the example is... You fold here then the very next hand the SS will be getting odds to get it allin in the SB the very next hand vs. one of the villains. Maybe a different way to portray your idea here would be... "villain is in SB with barely more than 1bb in their stack, you're sitting in BB with a HUGE stack.... "FOLD" when villain pushes from SB even if you're getting Huge odds (obv)...then attack the med. stacks at will. This sort of stuff would be (is) relevant more so in a reg. speed SNG when blinds aren't already ginormous on the bubble.... but for Turbo sng's.. blinds are often so high that there's rarely oppurtunity to bother with this.
Another time keeping the shortstack alive on the bubble is in a small field MTT (ie. 30-50players) and then just hammering away at the med.-sized stacks.
 
salim271

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I disagree with you on this one. If you have a chance to take out a player and pop the bubble, do it. I don't really like having people hanging around. There have been tons of STT where I let the SS hang around and then they double or triple up !!!! Now it's a new game. Or you try to steal and get caught, or the 2nd or 3rd people catches cards and now they are the big stack, there are just too many weird things that can go wrong when you let people hang around.

I am that person... yesterday I almost went out in the DD freeroll, blinds were huge and I was short stacked with 380 or so after a hand, half went to antes. I shoved with 34o and got 4 callers. Flopped trips and ended up with like 1600 with the antes and what I got from the remainder of my stack... funny thing is I cracked someones KK. From there I just restole to a stack, no one would call me down, after the first steal I had enough of a stack that so near the bubble it was unprofitable to try.

Anyways... always take out a player if you have the shot... if you had crap cards I can see a possible fold but they're really really short stacked anyways, short stacks have a great advantage, people call their all ins with crap, one face card is enough sometimes to have an advantage over the caller.
 
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WiZZiM

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More likely if they "don't" know about ICM.

I think OP here is just trying to get the principle/concept across about attacking the mid-sized stacks when there's a shortstack on the table and how you can really exploit this situation.....AND why keeping the shortstack alive can be very beneficial.
I disagree with the posts above (ie. Lizzy).. I don't think you're seeing the point (maybe you are? idk).. or maybe it's just because the example isn't the greatest to illustrate the principle.

The failing I see with the example is... You fold here then the very next hand the SS will be getting odds to get it allin in the SB the very next hand vs. one of the villains. Maybe a different way to portray your idea here would be... "villain is in SB with barely more than 1bb in their stack, you're sitting in BB with a HUGE stack.... "FOLD" when villain pushes from SB even if you're getting Huge odds (obv)...then attack the med. stacks at will. This sort of stuff would be (is) relevant more so in a reg. speed SNG when blinds aren't already ginormous on the bubble.... but for Turbo sng's.. blinds are often so high that there's rarely oppurtunity to bother with this.
Another time keeping the shortstack alive on the bubble is in a small field MTT (ie. 30-50players) and then just hammering away at the med.-sized stacks.


thanks, im not the best at explaining things, but thats the point i was trying to get accross...

oh, and if they want to risk calling with AJ as they know im pushing everyhand so be it. they are the ones making the mistake as far as im concerned, as pretty much any hand i have is a 60-40, unless he happens to have me dominated.. besides, you have the big stack, you can survive one hit to your stack, then fall back and try to knock the guy out.. but believe me, taking 1000 chips off both the medium stack players will help you get to 1st more often.. and quicker too (generally i play 6+ tables, i want the sng to end quickly so i can load another..)
 
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WiZZiM

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There is a time and place for that tactic. If the 2 middle stacks are tight and don't adjust often enough then yes you can abuse it. If they have any common sense they may just open their calling range to adjust for your pushing range. and? if they are willing to bubble with AJ off so be it... but i highly doubt its worth the risk, with a guy with only 500 chips or whatever his stack may be they should be trying to hang on into the money? Also the middle stacks may force the SS all in through your blind if they catch on to what your doing. So what? oh well, into the money we go..

remember its highly unlikely that you, the big stack will not make the money.. if you take a hit to your stack, readjust and start playing for the money again..
 
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RoTs

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Why would I fold a profitable situation? Unless it's a DoN or satellite, a profitable situation is a profitable situation unless the SS is all in on their next blind. If you read my first line in my op I agreed this tactic has its place, where others disagreed.
 
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