Stop slow playing marginal hands!!

This is one of the stupidest things I do and I seem to be doing it more and more! Please someone slap me round the face until you have beaten it out of me.

Watch the BOOM! replay here:
https://www.boomplayer.com/31482565_8DE19AFD63

The 3BB raise is pretty standard with ATs here. I flop top pair and check! WTF am I doing? Sure we might be behind, but I'm ahead of the villians range here. Checking is just allowing him to catch up. I then bet the turn after he checks behind, only to get raised. I call, which I think is fine. But then check call the river, which I think is another mistake. He turns over 99 for a set.

I know he may float the flop a reasonable % of the time, but if I bet out on the flop a) he folds his middle pairs most of the time and b) if he does call and miss, I've built a bigger pot while I'm ahead. The turn, I think I played OK, the river is just a garbage call, I should have folded.

Thoughts?

Yes, you need to bet that pot, because you have range advantage, you have all aces, and he doesn’t, maybe he’ll call, but I know that I wouldn’t.

He might still call first raise thinking you were just stealing blinds. But yea, you should have bet there.

micro and freerolls

in micro and freerolls - you always have a lot of players that never folds if they got a pair or higher!

Most often in micro or freerolls eventhough you are ahead better wait betting until you got a nuts hand - they will call your all in!

This particular goes in the beginning of a tournament, you will be outdrawn by the most crazy hands so no need to build pot on a top pair - just take what you can get until you get the monster hand. Normally players would fold but again these players never folding will also call your all in!

it is not like you miss the opportunity - once you get the monster someone will pay you fill value. only thing is if your monster comes after the no- fold players been taken out. i like them outdraw other players on silly odds - because when the stack to win on your monster hand is bigger😀

I think, you are being a little bit to hard on yourself here. Its fine to sometimes mix in a check with a weak top pair on a board like this. It can induce bluffs from the Villain, its difficult to get 3 streets of value, and there are few turn cards, you need to be afraid off. We are not betting in poker to prevent 2-outers from getting there, so this is just unlucky. You could also lead the flop for a small bet, but checking is certainly not a mistake.

I agree with your own thoughts about the turn and river. On the turn you have to call, since he could easily be bluffing, most likely with backdoor hearts. However on the river backdoor hearts got there, and you are getting a much worse price for a substantial percentage of your stack. So yeah just fold the river. Then the hand is much less tilting also, because you only lose a small pot, and you dont get to see, how you got beat.

Your analysis is fine for these stakes.
However in higher stakes it is pretty much mandatory check against good players.
1) you dont have 3 streets of value.
2) you balance your checking range.
3) you allow yourself to get value, by get bet into, from hands that would fold to the bet.
Good Luck!

check by flop you give a free card to your opponent, then he just got into the set

Matt_Burns88 said:

This is one of the stupidest things I do and I seem to be doing it more and more! Please someone slap me round the face until you have beaten it out of me.

Watch the BOOM! replay here:
https://www.boomplayer.com/31482565_8DE19AFD63

The 3BB raise is pretty standard with ATs here. I flop top pair and check! WTF am I doing? Sure we might be behind, but I'm ahead of the villians range here. Checking is just allowing him to catch up. I then bet the turn after he checks behind, only to get raised. I call, which I think is fine. But then check call the river, which I think is another mistake. He turns over 99 for a set.

I know he may float the flop a reasonable % of the time, but if I bet out on the flop a) he folds his middle pairs most of the time and b) if he does call and miss, I've built a bigger pot while I'm ahead. The turn, I think I played OK, the river is just a garbage call, I should have folded.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Same shit different day
:icon_pale
Always bet your hand, at the end you'll profit
why trap these donks?
They'll trap themselves

Edith: just to clear your mind: You bet, he calls you lose, but you don't have to post it

fundiver199 said:

I think, you are being a little bit to hard on yourself here. Its fine to sometimes mix in a check with a weak top pair on a board like this. It can induce bluffs from the Villain, its difficult to get 3 streets of value, and there are few turn cards, you need to be afraid off. We are not betting in poker to prevent 2-outers from getting there, so this is just unlucky. You could also lead the flop for a small bet, but checking is certainly not a mistake.

I agree with your own thoughts about the turn and river. On the turn you have to call, since he could easily be bluffing, most likely with backdoor hearts. However on the river backdoor hearts got there, and you are getting a much worse price for a substantial percentage of your stack. So yeah just fold the river. Then the hand is much less tilting also, because you only lose a small pot, and you dont get to see, how you got beat.

Click to expand...

I agree! It depends on the tournament type though (Freeroll, freezeout, etc?) Seems to be a result oriented post

IMHO

Mistake 1: Didnt bet flop
Mistale 2: Call raise on the turn
Mistake 3: Call the bet on river

I dont really think he check raise turn with a bluff. Maybe he could have a heart draw and do that, but most likely he checks flop and have you beat (maybe he flats AK) OR he improve on the turn (like happened in that hand). So, you could fold the turn check raise, or call if u think he has a heart draw. But you MUST fold river, cuz if he had a draw, he got there. Also, what do you beat in the river that he bet? All you beat is a stone cold bluff, wich is very unlikely to happen.

Hands you're losing to:

A 2
A 9
A Q
A K
10 J
all hearts
AA
KK
QQ
99
22


so, what u beat?
If he had a worst Ace he would not check raise or bet river.

i would have bet the turn but if he had called you would be in bad shape too. so in the end you lost less money.

Just to play devils advocate: the marginal hands are the ones you should slow-play in the sense that you seldom stack of with them. So just one or a most two streets of betting with a relatively weak top pair. Unless you are up against a calling station or an aggressive bluffer.

The baluga theorem holds true most of the time, especially on lower stakes: a raise on the turn is mostly a very strong hand. And if you have on pair often just fold.

Sure, after you check the flop some players can think you are capped and can start to bluff (against these players you have to call down sometimes - and/or check very strong hands also).

But if I don't have a read on a player: fold the turn and definitively fold the river.

azforlife said:

I agree! It depends on the tournament type though (Freeroll, freezeout, etc?) Seems to be a result oriented post

Click to expand...

I'm not a results oriented player (at least not the results of one hand). As I said in my original post, this is a habit that has crept into my game. Mixing a check in sometimes is not a bad move, but it has become too regular and too many times my opponent catches up or at least takes initiative of the hand.

I would not call what you did here a slow playing of the hand on the flop. You have a range advantage but you only have top paid medium kicker. You are also out of position here and need to be worried about that. You probably should have c-bet the flop but what are you betting for if you do? How happy are you if you get a call. He probably will call with a King or any ace and yes he most likely fold the nines here but are you 100% happy if he calls? Many times you wont mind it depending on the player type. I do think you should have c-bet the flop here but as someone else said here, dont be so hard on yourself on this one.

I would have min bet the flop, he'd have called, then when I maybe 3x bet the turn, he's either going to raise me or call it, if he raises, I likely fold because I'm never happy to get into a big pot with top pair, esp at that buy in. If he calls again, and then raises on the river, I'm folding because I'm thinking I'm likely beaten by a straight or two pair at that point. That's how I see it with how I play, but I'm also not great.

Guernica1974 said:

in micro and freerolls - you always have a lot of players that never folds if they got a pair or higher!

Most often in micro or freerolls eventhough you are ahead better wait betting until you got a nuts hand - they will call your all in!

This particular goes in the beginning of a tournament, you will be outdrawn by the most crazy hands so no need to build pot on a top pair - just take what you can get until you get the monster hand. Normally players would fold but again these players never folding will also call your all in!

it is not like you miss the opportunity - once you get the monster someone will pay you fill value. only thing is if your monster comes after the no- fold players been taken out. i like them outdraw other players on silly odds - because when the stack to win on your monster hand is bigger😀

Click to expand...

Perhaps this is the best way, but it's difficult to play against the principles of poker, knowing that we should bet on a spot like this and having to hold on to avoid falling into traps.

venycyos said:

Perhaps this is the best way, but it's difficult to play against the principles of poker, knowing that we should bet on a spot like this and having to hold on to avoid falling into traps.

Click to expand...

there is an optimal strategy for each tournament, time of tournament, stacks, blinds, other players etc. and this strategy is not against the principles of poker!

if you calculate the expected return on playing your hand with the restriction of if you loose you are out! combined with in this situation the likelihood of a player calling an allin bet post-flop or turn is very high compared to other situation.

basically it replicates the cashflow of down-out call option (look up the pricing mechanism of a barrier option).

the major difference here is that you got players that easily call an allin postflop bet - regardless you just checked preflop. that is why it is the optimal strategy - also in terms of poker!

Yea...I wouldve kept up the aggression. You dont really need to play gto/exploitive at this stage, str8 up ABC is best. For what you were thinking atm (just guessing) you were "balancing"? sry not at these stakes, it can work-1. regs 2. if you got decent reads

But ya... keep betting and your good. plus if he's not hitting he's folding the turn.
P.S.- if I were villian I'd still call up to 2/3's pot bet. a combination of other things might also get me to fold

Guernica1974 said:

there is an optimal strategy for each tournament, time of tournament, stacks, blinds, other players etc. and this strategy is not against the principles of poker!

if you calculate the expected return on playing your hand with the restriction of if you loose you are out! combined with in this situation the likelihood of a player calling an allin bet post-flop or turn is very high compared to other situation.

basically it replicates the cashflow of down-out call option (look up the pricing mechanism of a barrier option).

the major difference here is that you got players that easily call an allin postflop bet - regardless you just checked preflop. that is why it is the optimal strategy - also in terms of poker!

Click to expand...

Thank you for your consideration, really makes sense in case of tournament.

He does not fold his middle pairs and if he does he is just bad. You should bet the flop to get called not to make worse hands fold.

So different oppinions... I suppose you can somtimes bet flop and somtimes check. In both cases it's not mistake...
But on turn you must fold almost always.

You need to take in consideration that there were lots of hands that you would lose to. I would have bet the flop and if i got raised i would definitely fold,again fold on the river,too many hands that would have you beaten there...

He is guilty, gave to the enemy for just to see the turn. I think once you are the preflop aggressor on the flop, catch your match, it should continue its line of aggressor and bet, big bet, at least more than half of the pot.

Matt_Burns88 said:

This is one of the stupidest things I do and I seem to be doing it more and more! Please someone slap me round the face until you have beaten it out of me.

Watch the BOOM! replay here:
https://www.boomplayer.com/31482565_8DE19AFD63

The 3BB raise is pretty standard with ATs here. I flop top pair and check! WTF am I doing? Sure we might be behind, but I'm ahead of the villians range here. Checking is just allowing him to catch up. I then bet the turn after he checks behind, only to get raised. I call, which I think is fine. But then check call the river, which I think is another mistake. He turns over 99 for a set.

I know he may float the flop a reasonable % of the time, but if I bet out on the flop a) he folds his middle pairs most of the time and b) if he does call and miss, I've built a bigger pot while I'm ahead. The turn, I think I played OK, the river is just a garbage call, I should have folded.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

What's so standard about 3bb opening with ATs in 25c tourney? What do you expect from ATs in post-flop action? Nut flush, broadway, set of tens, that's all. OH yeah, and fish opponent calling station with A7os... that's all that you can expect from ATs postflop. If it's A high flop, then ten kicker isn't really good... In that hand at that river, opponent could have flush, straight, set, 2 pairs, even AJ will beat you. You've paid half of your stack for 1 pair with mid kicker. You've played that hand wrong from the start.

Since it's 25c tourney then forget about straddle or 3bb, in such cheap tourneys while average stacks are 50+BB the minimal opening bets are 4-6BBs, the bigger average stack = the bigger starting bet. In your place with approx 70BB stack I would open with 5BB bet, to freeze out all trashy hands like suited 67 or hands like Q8-K9os, and at A high flop holding ATs It's good to place pot size bet to show the strength. It will give you good information about opponents hand. If opponent calls your pot size bet on such rainbow A2K flop, then it leaves you with 2 choices, he's got a better ace or a set, or he has weaker ace and wants to give your chips.

In such cheap tourneys like 25-50c SnGs often the most aggressive wins, cause these games are full of scared players and of those who don't have a bankroll to play better games, quite often some players are playing there with their last money or using pennies that they've won in some freeroll. This is the reason why you must play hyper aggressively! And at the mid-late stages of such tourneys it's good to straddle with any two cards in position and keep opening 2-3bb out of position with any suited connectors, any K or A, cause during "close to the bubble" stage 90% of field there will sit tight and wait for a good pocket pair or minimum AQs.