Stop and Go's

JohnBoyWWFC

JohnBoyWWFC

Grindddddd
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Total posts
5,369
Chips
0
Was going to post this in the HA section, but I figured a more general discussion on Stop & Go's would be good. I'm trying to work them into my game a bit more, I think it's better than simply 3b jamming sometimes, but I'm curious to know other people's experiences of it.

Here's an example of a hand I played recently.

pokerstars Hand #90141421506: Tournament #648795027, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (50/100) - 2012/12/02 8:53:23 ET
Table '648795027 18' 8-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Tejjmo90 (4193 in chips)
Seat 2: leogama (3840 in chips)
Seat 3: Oswald 1203 (5652 in chips)
Seat 4: toyberg90 (10020 in chips)
Seat 5: Mik3ll (4148 in chips)
Seat 6: Jonnywatford (826 in chips)
Seat 7: milked it (3202 in chips)
Seat 8: subar1k (5140 in chips)
Tejjmo90: posts the ante 10
leogama: posts the ante 10
Oswald 1203: posts the ante 10
toyberg90: posts the ante 10
Mik3ll: posts the ante 10
Jonnywatford: posts the ante 10
milked it: posts the ante 10
subar1k: posts the ante 10
Jonnywatford: posts small blind 50
milked it: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jonnywatford [Kc 6c]
subar1k: folds
Tejjmo90: folds
leogama: folds
Oswald 1203: folds
toyberg90: raises 150 to 250
Mik3ll: calls 250
Jonnywatford: calls 200
milked it: folds
*** FLOP *** [Tc Th 5c]
Jonnywatford: bets 550
toyberg90: raises 1218 to 1768
Mik3ll: folds
Jonnywatford: calls 16 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1202) returned to toyberg90
*** TURN *** [Tc Th 5c] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Tc Th 5c 2d] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jonnywatford: shows [Kc 6c] (a flush, King high)
toyberg90: shows [9d 9c] (two pair, Tens and Nines)
Jonnywatford collected 2062 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2062 | Rake 0
Board [Tc Th 5c 2d 2c]
Seat 1: Tejjmo90 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: leogama folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Oswald 1203 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: toyberg90 showed [9d 9c] and lost with two pair, Tens and Nines
Seat 5: Mik3ll (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Jonnywatford (small blind) showed [Kc 6c] and won (2062) with a flush, King high
Seat 7: milked it (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: subar1k folded before Flop (didn't bet)

So, generally, I would 3b jam this, but CO has a big stack and will call a lot and the called is fairly tight. Since we're first to act post flop, we can call and (effectively) jam flop and maximise our fold equity instead of getting it in 3 ways pre. The fact we hit the flop fairly hard is irrelevant really. Also, opener is multi-tabling, hence why I bet just less than a jam, often these players don't notice what you're doing and fold, whereas they would call if they noticed it was a jam.

Anyway, I'm not really too confident with this and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how good/bad/horrendous/spewy this play is and in general when is good to stop & go?
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Total posts
2,683
Chips
0
With stats you may be able to justify shipping but that call I dont like at all.

Fold pre for me.
 
JohnBoyWWFC

JohnBoyWWFC

Grindddddd
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Total posts
5,369
Chips
0
With stats you may be able to justify shipping but that call I dont like at all.

Fold pre for me.

I think in the hand we have decent equity v his calling range but just don't get folds enough and we need to do something soon. But that's by the by.

What kind of hands would you stop & go with in this spot? Or if stacks/players were slightly different?
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Total posts
2,683
Chips
0
Im not a huge stop and go fan, but if I was to do it it would be with pairs and SC maybe. I just dont think they work very often.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
not against two players, against one this is totally fine.
 
JohnBoyWWFC

JohnBoyWWFC

Grindddddd
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Total posts
5,369
Chips
0
See the extra player coming in made me lean more towards a stop & go, though I'm not sure it was the best plan. I just figured I was much more likely to get 2 callers if I jam pre with those stack sizes and those villains.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
See the extra player coming in made me lean more towards a stop & go, though I'm not sure it was the best plan. I just figured I was much more likely to get 2 callers if I jam pre with those stack sizes and those villains.
Otoh, calling pre- leaves you only a little more than a half-pot to shove with, which limits your fold equity.

I'd also give more consideration to the stop and go if it was against one opponent rather than two.
 
JohnBoyWWFC

JohnBoyWWFC

Grindddddd
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Total posts
5,369
Chips
0
Yeah, I can see that. Anyway, I think we're getting too caught up on this specific hand rather than when and where would be good spots in general.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
Yeah pretty bad example hand. Usually StopnGo hands are somewhat decent to start with and as was pointed out you had pretty much blown your fold equity by flatting PF and were not as much of a threat after that - add to that two opponents and you really did not have a good situation for executing a StopnGo. Just randomly deciding to do a StopnGo without some qualifiers will end up being -EV.
My main qualifier would have to be versus a single TARGETED opponent.
 
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
See the extra player coming in made me lean more towards a stop & go, though I'm not sure it was the best plan. I just figured I was much more likely to get 2 callers if I jam pre with those stack sizes and those villains.

it sucks, but it just means that you kinda have to fold pre. i know you have f.all going on and it seems like you have no equity. but look for spots where you are heads up. folding this one, and getting heads up for 100 or 150 less chips is probably a better idea.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
Yeah, I can see that. Anyway, I think we're getting too caught up on this specific hand rather than when and where would be good spots in general.
In general, better spots occur when the conditions that make the example hand a poor one aren't there. So, for instance multiple opponents is an unfavorable factor, which means just one is favorable.
 
Top