Stealing at a limp-happy table

ManicLombax

ManicLombax

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When I'm at a table where every pot is limped, deep into the tourney, it becomes difficult to steal from late position. What's the general strategy here? I don't really want to be raising marginal hands, as I'm almost sure to get some callers, which I don't particularly want. I'd also have to throw out a much bigger raise to avoid giving the limpers pot odds to call. So basically I can just fold or limp along. Mostly I choose fold, but sometimes I do limp (and then mostly feel very fishy).

Here's an example. J9s would be pretty solidly in my BTN stealing range, but at this table it's not at all uncommon to have 3+ limpers in the pot before action gets to the BTN. If I raise, I just build a giant juicy pot with a drawing hand. If I fold, I feel like I'm just folding my tournament away waiting for a monster. I suppose if I choose the "fold away the tournament" route though, hopefully when I do get big hands they win bigger pots. Maybe that's the answer...

Poker Stars - $1.00+$0.25+0.15 Tournament (#338787616) - Blinds: 125/250 No Limit Hold'em (8 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $1610.00
BB: $3500.00
UTG: $14427.00
MP: $5015.00
MP+1: $13547.00
MP+2: $4183.00
CO: $5595.00
BTN Hero: $10435.00

Pre-flop: ($375.00) Hero is BTN and dealt :jd4: :9d4:
UTG folds, MP calls $250.00, MP+1 calls $250.00, MP+2 calls $250.00, CO folds, Hero calls $250.00, SB calls $125.00, BB checks

Flop: ($1500.00) :kc4: :5h4: :10h4: (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, MP+1 bets $500.00, MP+2 folds, Hero folds
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

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In that situation, esp with the high blinds and low stacks at your table, limping, even in position, just serves to unnecessarily bloat the pot. It is unfortunate, but at this point you have to fold the bottom end of your range (like J9s) in this spot and wait for better holdings. You don't necessarily have to "fold the tourney away", but you will have to tghten up a bit, say to KQo+, AJs+, 99+ from CO and BTN.

In the above example, you have two re-steal/shovey stacks to your left in the blinds, limp happy MP's and a comfortable sized stack to yourself. Limping just bloats the pot, and raising with the bottom of your range is dangerous, because if either of the blinds ship it, you put yourself into an unfavorable situation. Add to the fact that one of the big stack MP's might be limping strog and a raise might just leave you in a three-way raised pot holding slim. Not good. Sometimes, you just have to bite the bullet and tighten up.
 
Jillychemung

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These tables are tough to have patience on but that's what you need. The combination of multiple limpers and someone always willing to limp/call means that you have to tighten your ranges for raising, play position and then play aggressively the hands you do hit. And always be aware of stack sizes and SPRs as you will find that there are times when a pf shove will be better than a raise even if at 1st glance the pf shove may look like an overbet.
 
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It really depends on the type of tournament. Given the blinds this seems to be an MTT or 180 SNG...so I would say either shove or fold this hand. The limpers have stacks of only 13-15 effective bb's (effective bb here is ~375-400) and they're unlikely to want to risk their tournament life on a marginal call here. Unless the MP1 limper is holding a monster the shove is pretty safe. If they call you're behind but likely with ~40% equity and HU...with the dead money from antes, blinds and 2 limps you've got odds to probably play and the FE you have is just gravy.

edit: oops, just noticed the 13k player limped as well. That makes a shove a little too spew-y, in which case this seems more like a fold. But still, I would be looking to shove spots like this fairly often. If the MP+1 stack had ~7k chips I would say it's a shove. And an argument can still be made for just shipping it here to punish limping due to meta concerns. Like, shoving here would likely cause people to limp on your BTN slightly less. Do it two or three times and you'll find players letting you have your open-steal back...assuming no one called and knocked you out of course :D.
 
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Seabrooknutzz

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These tables are tough to have patience on but that's what you need. The combination of multiple limpers and someone always willing to limp/call means that you have to tighten your ranges for raising, play position and then play aggressively the hands you do hit. And always be aware of stack sizes and SPRs as you will find that there are times when a pf shove will be better than a raise even if at 1st glance the pf shove may look like an overbet.


Solid advice!
 
ManicLombax

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Thanks for the replies. Sorry, forgot to specify this was a 90 person bounty SNG ($1 + $0.10 + $0.25).

I kind of like the shove option, particularly with middle stacks limping. Might try that if I happen to find myself with a bigger stack in this situation again. I couldn't believe how many 66/2 fishies had big stacks in this one!

:)
 
PNJs_dad

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I hate the shove option. Is this pot so important to you that you willing to risk part or ALL of your 41 bbs on J 9. I would rather raise and play a pot in position than push. You may be doing EXACTLY what an EP limper wants. Plus with an 8 bb SS in the blinds just a good chance to get called. I mean if you had a hand like AA or KK there would you push? No? I think the raise looks stronger than the push. Sure you may have to play a flop WITH postion? If you're confident in your play that fact shouldn't scare ya. I just don't think it's worth a 10% increase in chips. Just my opinion. :)
 
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I hate the shove option. Is this pot so important to you that you willing to risk part or ALL of your 41 bbs on J 9. I would rather raise and play a pot in position than push. You may be doing EXACTLY what an EP limper wants. Plus with an 8 bb SS in the blinds just a good chance to get called. I mean if you had a hand like AA or KK there would you push? No? I think the raise looks stronger than the push. Sure you may have to play a flop WITH postion? If you're confident in your play that fact shouldn't scare ya. I just don't think it's worth a 10% increase in chips. Just my opinion. :)

The 13k MP limper makes shoving a bit wrong, maybe. But I don't think you can make a standard raise here, you either shove or fold. I would do this even with KK/AA and the like. The only stack a standard raise makes any sense against is the big one, but with potentially 4 other players you can't model your raise after just the big guy. Take that guy out of the equation or give him 7k chips and I think it's a pretty clear shove. The few bbs is absolutely worth it.

Just imagine what happens if you raise vs. shove. Let's take the hand above, but only have MP+1 with 7000 chips. Version 1: you raise to 1100, blinds fold, one of the MP players calls. Pot is 3325 and you're HU in position. The guy that calls has 5900 chips left. There is no reasonable continuation bet that you can make here that doesn't commit you to calling a c/r shove. That is even more true if one of the other stacks calls. That's not to mention what happens if you make it 1100 and one of the MP 5k stacks shoves...you'd be getting around 2:1 to call, very tough to get away from.

A shove takes away any kind of play from the blinds and maximizes FE against what appear to be fish-y players.

Consider the first scenario again, you're getting committed with any hand you raise there with and other players can pretty much see this too. Best disguise for your monsters is to just lump them in with your shoves.

I think shoving over limpers is a decent plan with effectives up to like 20bb or so.
 
PNJs_dad

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Just imagine what happens if you raise vs. shove. Let's take the hand above, but only have MP+1 with 7000 chips. Version 1: you raise to 1100,

Really? 1100? I believe you did say raise right? With blinds 125/250 and 3 limpers no wonder you would get called with a weak azz raise(if you want to call it that). With a pot of 2225 and only 850 to call you're GIVING your opponents incentive to call. I would raise around 1600 or fold.

Consider the first scenario again, you're getting committed with any hand you raise there with and other players can pretty much see this too. Best disguise for your monsters is to just lump them in with your shoves.

I would love to see some HH with 40 bb shoves with AA or KK.

Final thought is I LOVE this play when the BBs really mean something to you. Say when you are between 20-25 bbs or so. But at 40+ bbs I just don't see it.
 
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