Stack too small to barrell

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kmart99

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Just wondering what size of stack is too small to 3 barrell bluff.

Seems like <30bb is not at all enough to 3 barrel as a bluff, but is 40bb even enough to get someone off top pair even 15% of the time via 3 barrels?

At what point do your jam bluffs have to be on the turn ? The flop?

I know I'm never folding a decent top pair on the River for 15 BB or less unless the board shows straights, boats, or flushes that make sense.
 
dbchristy

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Its a really qood question, that ill follow for an answer. My bluffs are not working out as much lately. Maybe Im being a bully:)
 
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kmart99

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Well, I know that when I have 75+ BB stack my semi bluffs that miss (IN POSITION) get through often enough when I go 2/3 pot on the flop, 2/3 pot on the river, then full pot on the River.

So if I raise preflop with 6c7c and the big blind calls.

Flop comes KcKc4

Here's a spot where I'm almost always going to 3 barrel if checked to on all three streets. I can have AK, AA,KK, KQ, so 67 is a great hand to balance those out with as a bluff. But if my stack is only 30bb it seems like the bluff never gets through
 
Mr.$t0k

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the standard rate of three to five big blind, if not and you have quite a large number of chips that half of his bank
 
Jim Brown

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It depends on the tournament buyin level as well as other game play factors. Many low stakes players are just going to call down J7o on a Q72ATsss board regardless of action. The thought process is merely "I haz pear, call"
 
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kmart99

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It depends on the tournament buyin level as well as other game play factors. Many low stakes players are just going to call down J7o on a Q72ATsss board regardless of action. The thought process is merely "I haz pear, call"

Lol. I don't find myself getting called down often at all by middle pairs or worse if I go three barrels and put their tourney life on the line for 50+BB.

But ive definitely had bottom pair call my flop all-in many times if my stack is only like 10-15bb, whether I have the nuts or a draw. Some fish just can't let a pair go when the stacks are even 25bb deep.
 
widron2s

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if you and your in the range of 15-20 bb, you should be able to barrel bluff your opponet off. However, this doesn't usually work a majority of the time because of pot odds ect.
 
mbrenneman0

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I don't think 3barrel bluffing is a good idea in micro stakes ever unless you really have a read on the guy, and even then your third barrel maybe, just maybe, at the very best the 3rd barrel has a 20% chance of working...

Its best to just go for value.

If you're really intent on bluffing, I prefer the check raise. Its cheaper and more effective
 
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kmart99

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I don't think 3barrel bluffing is a good idea in micro stakes ever unless you really have a read on the guy, and even then your third barrel maybe, just maybe, at the very best the 3rd barrel has a 20% chance of working...

Its best to just go for value.

If you're really intent on bluffing, I prefer the check raise. Its cheaper and more effective



Well, generally when I have a big stack(50+BB) I'm firing the third barrel when I've opened in early position and flopped a large draw, or flopped a value hand. So 70% of the time I'm going for value, 10% I'm semi bluffing and hitting my draw, and 20% of the time I'm semi bluffing and missing. Only 7-9% of the time am I semi bluffing, missing, AND getting called. So my 3 barrel range is definitely profitable with a big stack, but when my stack is small my 3rd barrel seems to get called more like 80-90%.

I really think it's a question of stack size, assuming I'm choosing my bluffs correctly. To just not bluff at the micros would give up a ton of value, IMO.
 
mbrenneman0

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I'm not saying don't bluff, just if the first two barrels dont do it, there is a slim chance your 3rd barrel will. If he calls your first two you can usually assume he has a good hand. Or he's just really bad.
 
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kmart99

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I see it differently. When Im bluffing, I lose 100% of the time I don't fire the 3rd barrel(this crushes my winrate),plus, if I only fire the 3rd barrel with my value hands then my opponent will know when I'm weak. I'd rather protect my missed draws, by grouping them with my value hands. Honestly, the only time I don't fire the third barrel is if the board texture dictates that I shut it down.

If I start with one barrel, you can bet most likely all three are coming, and most of the time I'm going for value with this line. Really only a fraction of the time will it be a missed draw.

However, Ive noticed my 3rd barrel getting called down more and more when my stack gets smaller and smaller, or when villain's stack is small, or when Villain has me covered . I think there is a line where my bluff equity just gets so low with only a few big blinds effective that the third barrel will almost never work and maybe turn shoves or flop shoves are requires.

On a 36% draw you only need folds 15% of the time for the play to be +EV. Otherwise you're just giving up value in order to survive, which, unless you're on the bubble or due for a big jump in payouts, isn't smart.
 
mbrenneman0

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I dont think its that your stack is getting smaller that makes your barrels less effective, I think its a highly exploitable play that your opponents pick up on. As soon as they know youre capable of firing three barrel bluffs they will call you down more often.
Dont try to win every hand. Know when to give up. I get a lot of wins from people trying the three barrel against me. In fact, the missed flush bluff on the river is such a common mistake in the micros that I don't even need to read my opponent to know that a 2flush flop that doesn't complete usually means villain is going to bluff the river, so I check the river to them just to let them bluff at me then I raise.

The equity in your hand to improve on the flop and turn is why I dont mind the semi bluff on flop and turn. But if you miss your draw, there is no equity on the river. If you bet half pot on the river, you need them to fold more than 25% of the time or better to be break even... All youre doing is exposing yourself to higher varience and risking more of your tournament life. And quite simply if they called your first 2 barrels youre probably only getting a fold 15% of the time on the river. If your betting less than half pot then youre getting a fold even less often.

Seriously you don't need to win all your hands. Sometimes if your drawing its better just to check raise to maximize FE on earlier streets or just check and try to complete your draw.

Small hands, small pots. Big hands, big pots
 
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kmart99

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I'm not trying to win every hand, I just can justify handing over equity when I'm in position. Yeah from out of position I'm way less likely to try it. But the river barrel is the best barrel I'm. I simply can't agree w/ you because my value hands won't get paid when I fire my third barrel if I only ever do it for value. My river bets are very polarized, which I think is the best way to get paid on your good hands.. I generally have a fairly nutted hand, or nothing at all on my river bet. Also, my third barrel is for 75% pot minimum. Sometimes more.

If someone thinks I'm barreling too many draws(which I'm not) than they will pay me off more often than they catch me barreling.

It's not like I'm firing barrels at every draw I hit regardless of how the board hits my range. Im looking for bluffs that hit my range hardest so that when I do hit a draw instead of a nutted hand Villain won't know what to do. 75% of the time I'm going for value.

Without the third barrel I'm sure I'd be giving up way too much with my nut hands.
 
mbrenneman0

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75% pot you would need him to fold 42% of the time. That's just unrealistic.

If your bluffing on boards that "hit your range" dont you suppose those boards hit your opponents range pretty hard too?

If youre usually only value betting 3 streets with premium hands then you're going to be showing up with a bluff here more often than with the best hand.

Now if youre being consistent in your bet sizing and betting 75% on each street, and assuming you are heads up, you would need 3bb pre, 4.5bb off, ~11bb on the turn, and ~28.5 on the river. That's a 47bb play. Unless you're playing deepstacked, then that's almost always going to be more than half your stack... ... You're risking half your stack for a play that doesn't even work half the time? Gross.
 
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kmart99

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My range and my opponent's range are often very different. Especially when I'm up against the big blind. So no, generally the big blind just has way more worse holdings than my opening range.


I would say I definitely get the fold +42% of the time on the River when my stack is deep enough and I've picked a good board to bluff on. Probably more like 60%. It's hard to call off your tournament life with just top pair or worse. Which is why I get the folds on scary boards that can hit my range but not villain's.

Now yeah, I'm risking half my stack on a play that works a little over half the time, but the real beauty of the play is that when I do have a nut hand, which is most 3 barrels , I get paid more often because my opponent is thinking 50/50 I'm bluffing when usually I'm not.

When I say I'm usually value betting 3 streets with solid hands, I'm saying I make sure my value bets outnumber my bluffs by roughly 3 to 1. Yeah, I get caught bluffing sometimes and it sucks, but bluffing was the biggest reason I started winning tournaments. I just couldn't get to the money with more than 25bbers when I was playing TAG. Sure I'd win the odd tournament(like 1/200) but not nearly enough. My ITM was 35% but I just couldn't close the deal. Now my ITM is down to 18% but when I do make the money it is usually with a sizeable stack and great bluff equity.

To just never fire the third barrel because you are scared you won't get the fold makes no sense.

Think how many times youve had a JJ type hand OOP on a Q82 board and you've called two barrels but had to fold to the third one all-in because it would be asinine to bust on such a marginal holding. Even QJ might fold to three barrels if the flush comes. Now imagine all the times players call two streets on a flush draw or an OESD and then hit middle pair or something usless OTR.... All those players will win if you don't fire the third barrel, but most will fold if the third barrel eliminates them.

The river barrel is the best barrel, you just have to pick your hands and boards wisely.
 
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kmart99

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An opponent calling two streets can mean they are on a draw, have a marginal hand like bottom pair, or middle pair , or a pocket pair smaller than top pair, or they can have top pair with a weak kicker, or a good kicker, or be trapping with a nut hand.

All of those scenarios may call two streets, but many will fold to the third. Just pick the right hands and the right boards.
 
mbrenneman0

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do you have poker tracker?
 
mbrenneman0

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one of the cool things about poker tracker is you can run filters. id be curious to see a filter for all the spots where you triple whether for value or as a bluff, if you gained more big blinds or lost more big blinds in all these spots.
 
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kmart99

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K. I'll run it and post a pic tonight or tomorrow.
 
gjwalk

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My range and my opponent's range are often very different. Especially when I'm up against the big blind. So no, generally the big blind just has way more worse holdings than my opening range.


I would say I definitely get the fold +42% of the time on the River when my stack is deep enough and I've picked a good board to bluff on. Probably more like 60%. It's hard to call off your tournament life with just top pair or worse. Which is why I get the folds on scary boards that can hit my range but not villain's.

Now yeah, I'm risking half my stack on a play that works a little over half the time, but the real beauty of the play is that when I do have a nut hand, which is most 3 barrels , I get paid more often because my opponent is thinking 50/50 I'm bluffing when usually I'm not.

When I say I'm usually value betting 3 streets with solid hands, I'm saying I make sure my value bets outnumber my bluffs by roughly 3 to 1. Yeah, I get caught bluffing sometimes and it sucks, but bluffing was the biggest reason I started winning tournaments. I just couldn't get to the money with more than 25bbers when I was playing TAG. Sure I'd win the odd tournament(like 1/200) but not nearly enough. My ITM was 35% but I just couldn't close the deal. Now my ITM is down to 18% but when I do make the money it is usually with a sizeable stack and great bluff equity.

To just never fire the third barrel because you are scared you won't get the fold makes no sense.

Think how many times youve had a JJ type hand OOP on a Q82 board and you've called two barrels but had to fold to the third one all-in because it would be asinine to bust on such a marginal holding. Even QJ might fold to three barrels if the flush comes. Now imagine all the times players call two streets on a flush draw or an OESD and then hit middle pair or something usless OTR.... All those players will win if you don't fire the third barrel, but most will fold if the third barrel eliminates them.

The river barrel is the best barrel, you just have to pick your hands and boards wisely.

This. Here's some great advice on 3 barrelling. You're telling a story with your bets, don't leave out the best part. I'm one of those that keeps making the money but, going really deep is rare, so it's nice to read some useful advice.
 
mbrenneman0

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This. Here's some great advice on 3 barrelling. You're telling a story with your bets, don't leave out the best part. I'm one of those that keeps making the money but, going really deep is rare, so it's nice to read some useful advice.
Dont forget villain is also telling a story with his calls
 
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i think if the bluff is over 50% of stack not worth it
 
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I disagree

It depends. Most players wont risk 30 BB's with just one pair unless no draws hit and they have Top Pair and top Kicker and it's not like a J Q K 8 7 board.
 
Zacccpanec

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Usually, if the stack does not allow me to put a 3-barrel, I only do two, but since turn 2/3, and certainly part of the Bank. Read it in one book, this line runs almost flawlessly
 
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