Something is not clicking with me (When running deep in a tourney)

naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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I don't really know how to put it (Have you ever felt like, why don't things just go your way)? Or what is it about your game that is unprofitable? Or why is that your game is flawed?

I should be happy (I mean), for the past week I've been playing the $1.10 rebuy 30k GTD games on stars and (Yes I've min cashed, over and over), and 2 nights (Yesterday "They called it Sunday Spark", same thing to me personally), and tonight I've had deep runs in it...


Yet I'm encountering the same problems when my chip stack is over the 4mill area (And that problem is WTF do I do)...Do I just open shove when blinds are like 100k-200k (4mill UTG)? Do I raise to 475k and then call it off as long as they don't have me cover'd? I normally don't play deep (Well that deep period TBH)...So I really can't figure out exactly what the correct protocol for plays that deep really is in the 1st place...

Don't get me wrong (My wife is telling me meh, look at all the cash's as a min cash, and that theory has helped me get to the cash's thus far, that thinking "WTF $17 is just a min cash $200 is just a min cash"), it's either #1 or it's just a min cash in my mind (Thus I play reckless, and it actually works out believe it or not), but only on the rebuy stages...And by reckless I mean, I'll stack AJs at a min, and I'll open UTG shove AQo+ only (If you consider that reckless then, that's me)...


So I want to know acouple of questions...


1) Why am I so aggressive in the early stages, and actually build up my stack (No issues at all to like 100k+ in the 1st hour), then continue to actually keep building up my stack, but then when the money bubble bursts I turn into this paralyzed Ostrich...

2) How do I over come this issue, cuz it's really hurting me and I don't know what I can do to combat it (Best way to describe the feeling is not when the money bubble bursts, but when we are like final 200, this fear of not wanting to donk/be donked/unlucky/dread over comes me and I just freeze up and wait for big hands/trying to chip up the LB (And it really REALLY sucks)..



Now tonight I had about 6million in chips and there was about 90 left and I finished 38th (You know why, because I froze once again "That damn ICE is a killer". and I'm so disappointed not because of my finish (Not at all), but because of the way I finished, and how fearless I was playing before and how I ended up when so close to the FT and yet so far, and the damn same thought kept hitting my head over and over and over (DON'T **** UP, DON'T ****ING DONK, DON'T DON'T DON'T), and I seriously could'nt block it out..

So to all you tourney players what/how did you over come your issues in tournys?


The best way to describe the feeling is straight up fear, I mean for example in the same game with 40 left I had 2.8million in chips, and I picked up A9o and everyone folded to me on the button, and I could'nt pull the trigger I mean (Inside I wanted shove my gut said shove, my brain said Are you insane with 40 left Abdi, do you really want to lose so close to the FT? Really REALLY, WTF, anyways I ended up folding, and yes both BvB shoved and they both had bunk and I would've/could've/wished I had shoved but didn't
 

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Arjonius

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The depth of your stack is much more a matter of how many BB you have / what your M is than the number of chips. 4 million when the BB is 200k is 20BB. Relative stack size is a factor, but relatively deep and deep aren't necessarily the same in terms of how you can play.
 
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RamdeeBen

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If you're playing turbos with fields of 6k+ runners and don't have the "bottle" to shove A,9 on the BTN when getting short, then you're in the wrong game because these games are purely based on late game play, that is it and shoving A,9 in a spot like that is an absolute monster, and there are times you should be shoving a LOT wider than A,9 for example.

You won't (unless you get very lucky and pick up monsters and someone shoves in to you) manage to go deep enough as you will let yourself blind away and miss on spots to shove.

It's clear you get to focused on "what could be" and a 6k for 1st place so make bad folds in spots you should be jamming. Even with 30 left, in a turbo structure you aren't "close" to the FT or anywhere near close, you will have to be all-in a few times to even contemplate hitting the FT..

Variance in normal 6k fields are big enough, with turbos you're going to experience huge varience..just loosen up towards the end game and don't even look at payout structures as this is clearly the reason you're not shoving in spots you should be.

You should ask yourself this question, if there was no money on the line, would you shove A,9 on the button, or would you of bottled it? Chances are, you would shove without a second thought.
 
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fugitive67

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it's tough b/c i know myself, i wanna cash first and then go from there, but even then you look at the payouts and you keep going ... ooo a few more spots and another bump in cash

and when you have a lot of chips you tend to try to play it both ways

obviously there is a lot to it, but when you have a lot of chips, you should be able to abuse bubble stacks and steal some blinds, then with short stacks pushing ... it takes some luck but some days you will be catching chips with the right hand at the right time

and one other things to remember is that short stacks will push with squadoosh sometimes depending on their stack size and their position and the thinking that you'd rather be 1 v. 1 for your tourney life for maybe 35 or 40% to win vs. having a couple callers ... when your short everyone has more chips, so the guy with a huge stack is not much different than the mid-low stacker ... .whereas mid stacks will fear your stack
 
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BluffYou123

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Post your stack sizes in bbs/M as 2.8 million chips means nothing if we don't know the size of the blinds. Not shoving/raising A9 on the button when it's folded to you in this type of game is criminal.

It seems like you play pretty well until you start thinking about the $ you could win, so stop looking at the prizes and just keep playing like you are to go deep. Obviously if you're playing like a maniac you'll want to tighten up some.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Obviously this is a head issue not a card issue.

As stated - you are NOT deep stacked with 20 BB (200,000 BB with $4 million) and need to be seriously taking some aggressive action to stay alive.

A9 with 40 BB - why was raising not an option for you? You seem to have made it into a push/fold. Not saying shoving would be wrong or that raising was preferable but you did have one more option. Not all blind steals have to be accomplished with a shove. Let's say you raise 3x and get shoved on and then fold - so what? What's the big difference between 40 or 37 BB at this stage? None really.

You seem to be getting lost in the minutia (details) and taking your eyes off the bigger picture. More concerned with the next pay increase than getting to the top payout. What happens if you flip/flop change this?

#1 - You will bust out percentage will be more often. Yup, it's going to happen. You shove with A9 and the guy with 43o hits a 4 on the flop and on the turn. Bye. bye. That's one of the consequences of putting yourself out there. What's another one?

#2 - Your cashes will get bigger. Those times it does work will buy you all sorts of more time for a deeper run than you are used to.

You have to decide which you would rather have. Cash 30% of the time in 7th, 8th or 9th place OR cash 11% of the time in 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Do the math and you will see which one is preferable.
 
Poker Orifice

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Focus on how many bb's & what the effective stack sizes are on table (doesn't matter if it's 3gazillion chips if it's only 15bb's)
Look to your left & know who you'll be calling off to if they have resteal-sized stacks shoving allin over your raise (prior to making your open raise).
Try to maintain a stack with some fold equity.
Think about risk vs. reward (think about how things/situation changes (negatively or positively) if 'call & win'.. or 'call & lose').

Forget about the money! Focus on looking for spots (ie. good resteal-shove spots, &/or steal spots, etc. etc.).
 
Poker Orifice

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A9 with 40 BB - why was raising not an option for you? You seem to have made it into a push/fold. Not saying shoving would be wrong or that raising was preferable but you did have one more option. Not all blind steals have to be accomplished with a shove. Let's say you raise 3x and get shoved on and then fold - so what?
He doesn't say '40bb', he said '40 left' (I'm assuming that's 40 players left in the tourney).
We don't know the size of SB & BB stacks... but it sounds like they're both short (or short'ish') wherein whatever Hero does, he's getting it in (r/f sounds to be out of question re: stack sizes of players in blinds) < effective stack sizes is the question here, not necessarily 'Hero's' stack size.
 
Poker Orifice

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What happens if you flip/flop change this?

#1 - You will bust out percentage will be more often. Yup, it's going to happen. You shove with A9 and the guy with 43o hits a 4 on the flop and on the turn. Bye. bye. That's one of the consequences of putting yourself out there. What's another one?
so BB is calling off with 43o?
#2 - Your cashes will get bigger. Those times it does work will buy you all sorts of more time for a deeper run than you are used to.

You have to decide which you would rather have. Cash 30% of the time in 7th, 8th or 9th place OR cash 11% of the time in 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Do the math and you will see which one is preferable.
Interesting stats./numbers(%) there. I suppose it's just to illustrate a point?
It's a 6-7,000 field in a 3x-Turbo. getting to final 100 players isn't gonna happen too often. Sounds like Naruto's had his fair share (& then some) of pretty deep runs in this already (not sure of sample size though)... maybe he'll get used to more? Rungood then imo.
Huge ass't. of players in those games. Notice that even a bunch of the HSMTT regs. play in them.

My last suggestion for ya Naruto > don't get too attached to thinking about the 'what ifs' & 'if onlys'. Just keep working on picking your spots well & try to maintain a stack w FE.
Good luck in the next ones. Would be cool to see you get a nice score in one of these!
PS, any merit to late reg'n in one of these? (noticed the addon is fairly huge...am I correct in saying it's like 15bb's? (does it occur at the 90min. mark?). Wondering what the avg. stack is after the addon?
Oh yah & good luck (again). Take it down!
 
MediaBLITZ

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He doesn't say '40bb', he said '40 left' (I'm assuming that's 40 players left in the tourney).
We don't know the size of SB & BB stacks... but it sounds like they're both short (or short'ish') wherein whatever Hero does, he's getting it in (r/f sounds to be out of question re: stack sizes of players in blinds) < effective stack sizes is the question here, not necessarily 'Hero's' stack size.

Yeah you're right - my bad - just the way my phrasing works. When I say 40 left I'm referring to BB.

I guess I have kind of gotten over worrying about how many people. Not that I am unaware of like the bubble but stack sizes are much more important. The real enemy is those stinking blinds. If it weren't for them the other players wouldn't be a problem.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Interesting stats./numbers(%) there. I suppose it's just to illustrate a point?

Totally - Made me dizzy thinking about working it out for a field of 7,000. Hell I still have yet to conquer a field of 700 let alone run deep in 7000.

There's a post I made a while back with more details that substantiates it better than just blurting out a bunch of numbers.
 
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CANDYMAN1414

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What helps me is NEVER look to see how many are left or where the bubbles are for cashes or increases. This will help alot but remember to trust your first instinct .. its usually correct. ie shove or fold
 
naruto_miu

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Ok 1st of all, I want to thank everyone for there suggestions.

Now to answer acouple of the questions...And to ask of something...

To Media Blitz, can you post the thread to those numbers if you don't mind..If not I will search it up (But since I do not know the title of it will take some time)

To P.O (You already know I have not played poker since December of Last year), and I started playing back in May...Now when I stated I had acouple of deep runs in them (This particular tourney itself)..I probably have played about 100 times (Not under stating it TBH), in that 100 times I have cashed about 70 times in it), as for deep runs in it, out of the 70 times I have made about 30 deep runs in it, but this is my highest finish...This is going back 2 years now I would say, since I just started actually getting back into this tourney TBH..

As for the average stack size by the time the Rebuy period ends (Or are you asking average stack sizes after the addon period ends)...Average after add on period ends is about 60K ish or so...Prior to it ending it is about 30k ish give or take acouple of K..

As for ppl really calling when late in the game with 43o (It honestly does happen late in the game Truth be told), I witnessed someone call A.I for about 5 million in chips when they only had about 7mil left with blinds at 100-200k+whatever the ante was with Q4s vs JJ and spiked a boat (When I asked why, they stated they had a feeling)...


Once again I thank all for there input, and I will be taking the suggestions of not looking about the prize pool nor really worrying about it...


Another thing for those that are going to be playing in this for the future, best suggestion I can give you is make sure your stack is the top of the LB after rebuy period+add on period ends, only tip cuz ppl will play very loose still
 
MadMaddie

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"In Order To Live, You Must Be Willing To Die."
I read this quote in a Tournament Strategy Guide. Maybe it applies to what you are referring to in your post here.

Good Luck this week! Hope you get to final table this tournament.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Post your stack sizes in bbs/M as 2.8 million chips means nothing if we don't know the size of the blinds. Not shoving/raising A9 on the button when it's folded to you in this type of game is criminal.

It seems like you play pretty well until you start thinking about the $ you could win, so stop looking at the prizes and just keep playing like you are to go deep. Obviously if you're playing like a maniac you'll want to tighten up some.

I'll post it for you all to help, I'll post as soon as I find the right subfolder that the hands are in on my computer..

As for your 2nd thing about "playing like a maniac", I play like this as I stated only in the rebuy period, and up until the final 400 and then tighten up...

Once again playing maniac in my mind constitutes open shoving AQs+UTG with 500k in chips with blinds at about 5-10k and only on tables where I have them all usually cover'd...I wont/would'nt do things of this nature on tables where there were acouple of players at about the same stack sizes and/or over my stack size

1 more thing your correct when I think about the what if/what could be/money potential that's when the fear issue starts...I do well in the start of these things because the money is so far away (That it's stupid to have those thoughts in your mind), but when it's like 200 players left (that's when the issue really hits home in my mind)
 
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BluffYou123

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Shoving AQs+ is probably a good idea in these in the rebuy period cos people don't like their fold button much. If you make a standard raise, you'll sometimes get the whole table calling to see a flop. Work on your push/fold game and you'll know what to do deep in the game. Good luck.
 
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(Thus I play reckless, and it actually works out believe it or not), but only on the rebuy stages...And by reckless I mean, I'll stack AJs at a min, and I'll open UTG shove AQo+ only (If you consider that reckless then, that's me)...

It actually sounds like you would be doing the same thing at the end too.
But in the early stages with low blinds you have the luxury of waiting a few circuits for even just AJ/AQ.
In the later stages the Blinds to Stack Size mean that a few circuits do a lot more damage to the stack.
Raising or shoving a much wider range (despite still being 9 handed tables) and taking the gamble is unfortunately necessary.
At the end of the day you just need the Rungood business plan.
 
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Trimming1

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consider what P.O. said

pertaining to blinds stealing etc , as in the later stages of ANY tournement it can become a factor to your final outcome. I remember when us usa players could play these games. I had some nominal sucesses but My point is if I am on the cut off, the button, small or bb., I should raise with ANY KING ANY ACE. To accompilsh this I had to be willing to BE A.I. remember you can GAIN 10% 20% even 40% of your stack size by a steal/ shove move.Good luck in the future.:cool: :D
 
duggs

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post hands as an example please
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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post hands as an example please


I would post hands no issues at all, but I don't know which file the actual hand from the actual tourney it is in...


If you can walk me through to finding the actual hands in all these folders then no problem with posting hands for you
 

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deeshark420

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paralized ostrich

rolling on the remark but been there stop playing scared when you get there remember their cards are no better than yours getting the jitters dont win money and believe me pokerstars has alot of good tournaments with lots of cash.whats the old saying a closed mouth gathers no food. playing too safe can hender your gain.:D
 
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If you are gonna be playing super duper turbos, you should play SnG 6, or 9 man Super duper turbos as well. you will learn the best times to pull the trigger. A9 i woulda definitely raised big, and possibly called a shove if i had a read on the dummies
 
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babu0511

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As you get deep in the tournament the skill level rises a bit and maybe you think the plays you make in the early stage to build your stack aren't going to work anymore. Just have the same thought process, and you might have to widen your range even more when blinds get that high relative to your stack and don't look at the money....
 
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