Some SNG Questions

jgreenman18

jgreenman18

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Hello I am just writing this topic to ask a question on how to prevent losing on the bubble so many times. I know everyone preaches agressive and go all in with good hands when final 4. I was wondering if any of you could help me I generally only call with a10+ or 88+ on the bubble but will shove lighter if I'm short stacked and feel I can succeed on a big stack increase although it's actually crazy how much I am bubbling in last 16 games bubbled 9 won 2 2nd2 and 3 once idk if this just comes with being aggressive or should I readjust my strategy to become more profitable


I only had like 20 and Ik this is small but what Is a good amount for when I grind from freerolls again and try to take another shot at beating them all


Just looking for any tips in general for more success late in the game
 
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ParanormGhost

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the best is to stay out of the game when u re on the bubble...and a litle bit after the buble ends cuz some of the players waits till the buble is over and after that they go all in...try to go all in only when youre one of the last players who speaks cuz if u are the first to speak and u go all in u dont know how many people will call and more they are the less chances to win u have
 
westside1950

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If you search for right tacitcs in the bubble situations in SNGs, google what ICM is and study it good enough to make an ideal calls( or folds).

That should help you to solve this problem :)
 
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WiZZiM

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20 is nothing. come back when you have played at least 300 of them.

If you are losing on the bubble a ton it's almost certainly leaks before you reach the bubble leaving you with shorter stacks than your opponants on average, you can get there by playign too tight and missing spots, or playing too loose and leaking in spots. SNG is about a balanced approach. if i had one tip it would be look what happens to your stack as soon as you reach the 5 handed or bubble play, basic probabilty suggest that if you have a smaller stack on average than your opponants do you will lose more often on the bubble, 3 handed and Heads up, simple stuff worth remembering. Past that working with ICM and nailing down really solid ranges for a lot of common spots will sure help things a lot.

but yeah, 20 is not worth thinking about or anaylising, deposit a bankroll and give it a proper shot or just stay in the freerolls and have fun with poker. you can't really get away anymore with just half assing things, if you want to win in SNG games you have to study up, fix leaks and work your ass off to see any meaningful results. So either get into it and give it 100% or just don't spend anything on it and have fun in the freerolls.
 
jgreenman18

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An interesting point I have studied ICM but I will look into it in further detail. Actually the problem I had was calling a bit too loose not play leading up to the bubble I looked over it on poker tracker. Thank you for the great advice once I really divulge into studying ICM more I'm sure your right and I won't be guessing if a move I am making is +CEV. I have actually done well enough to have a bankroll built out of 30 dollars again so I understand variance could hit me but I plan on giving it another shot and really studying my leaks but thank you westside and wizzam
 
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rule72

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Actually the problem I had was calling a bit too loose not play leading up to the bubble I looked over it on poker tracker. /QUOTE]

If you're "calling" and you are a short stack I think that's a problem.

My basic approach is if I'm shortest stack I loosen slightly and shove or fold. I never limp or call when my stack is less than 7 times the sb+bb+1 round of antes. My shoves are mostly when there's no action in front.

If I'm second shortest stack I tighten a little unless the shortest stack is too tight then I play like I'm the shortest stack. With the same action I described above.

If you're getting that close that high a percentage of the time you are superior to the majority of payers you play against, which means you should occasionally move up. I've found overtime that I enjoy playing a little higher than lower stakes. On the other hands 20 tourney's is really not enough to be meaningful.

My attitude is when I walk into the casino I've already won and it's up to the others to prove me wrong...lol.
 
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WiZZiM

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An interesting point I have studied ICM but I will look into it in further detail. Actually the problem I had was calling a bit too loose not play leading up to the bubble I looked over it on poker tracker. Thank you for the great advice once I really divulge into studying ICM more I'm sure your right and I won't be guessing if a move I am making is +CEV. I have actually done well enough to have a bankroll built out of 30 dollars again so I understand variance could hit me but I plan on giving it another shot and really studying my leaks but thank you westside and wizzam

unless you know what you are doing, you will never know if you called too light, you could be calling with perfect ranges, but your personal bias or experiemce is telling you that you are too loose, so you go from calling with perfect ranges to calling too tight and you will loose a certain amount of tournament equity by changing.

You have to back your experience up with the numbers, which is where ICM comes into play.

How about posting a bunch of hands with as much info as possible in this thread and we can give you some feedback. Find the hands where you think you called to loose and we can go over them. The problem with a lot of players is that they either don't give things a chance to overcome variance, like calling in spots more often so they change the way they play because it hasn't worked over the short term.

That or they just have a set strategy in play which is just bad and they never change it or think or know that there is a problem occuring..
 
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ItryhardAA

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you should be looking at and the HUD statistics you should be stealing blinds time to time depending how tight or loose the other players. even can tell if they like slowplaying you or fire with a lot of bluffs.
now if its a turbo then you will get to the point where you most likely have to push a lot more but that's more variance
 
jgreenman18

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Actually the problem I had was calling a bit too loose not play leading up to the bubble I looked over it on poker tracker. /QUOTE]



If you're "calling" and you are a short stack I think that's a problem.



My basic approach is if I'm shortest stack I loosen slightly and shove or fold. I never limp or call when my stack is less than 7 times the sb+bb+1 round of antes. My shoves are mostly when there's no action in front.



If I'm second shortest stack I tighten a little unless the shortest stack is too tight then I play like I'm the shortest stack. With the same action I described above.



If you're getting that close that high a percentage of the time you are superior to the majority of payers you play against, which means you should occasionally move up. I've found overtime that I enjoy playing a little higher than lower stakes. On the other hands 20 tourney's is really not enough to be meaningful.



My attitude is when I walk into the casino I've already won and it's up to the others to prove me wrong...lol.


Well I mean no offense to never call with below 7 bb is just dumb for example in a 3 handed game if the big stack raises and you are dealt jj and its all in too call you should call or your just wasting a hand that will most likely be the best hand. Although I do understand your main point you must shove more than u call but sometimes you must call as well. I will shove a lot lighter then i will call due to fold equity. But also I consider calling with ace highs right around that 4-7 bb range where you need to make a move.
 
jgreenman18

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But yeah I agree that I feel if I keep adjusting and playing my game I will start a more frequent win streak or more consistency
 
jgreenman18

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unless you know what you are doing, you will never know if you called too light, you could be calling with perfect ranges, but your personal bias or experiemce is telling you that you are too loose, so you go from calling with perfect ranges to calling too tight and you will loose a certain amount of tournament equity by changing.

You have to back your experience up with the numbers, which is where ICM comes into play.

How about posting a bunch of hands with as much info as possible in this thread and we can give you some feedback. Find the hands where you think you called to loose and we can go over them. The problem with a lot of players is that they either don't give things a chance to overcome variance, like calling in spots more often so they change the way they play because it hasn't worked over the short term.

That or they just have a set strategy in play which is just bad and they never change it or think or know that there is a problem occuring..


I will later on poker tracker going to play a couple more and I will let you know the thing is though people generally lighten up when moved to 3 handed as they should so. I feel HUD stats are not as effective at this stage as they make it appear everyone is more tight then they are.
 
jgreenman18

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you should be looking at and the HUD statistics you should be stealing blinds time to time depending how tight or loose the other players. even can tell if they like slowplaying you or fire with a lot of bluffs.
now if its a turbo then you will get to the point where you most likely have to push a lot more but that's more variance


I agree completely just tricky when u fall close to that 5 bb range and have to shove with a wide array of hands just to generate fold equity.
 
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WiZZiM

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I will later on poker tracker going to play a couple more and I will let you know the thing is though people generally lighten up when moved to 3 handed as they should so. I feel HUD stats are not as effective at this stage as they make it appear everyone is more tight then they are.

oh for sure they loosen up. some players tighten up. Once you get a few hundred games under your belt and have more information on regular players, i would suggest to break your hud up into stage of game, that way you can filter out hands played in the early game which will influence the stats in front of you.

having said that it's all just a guide to see what the particular player is playing like. good players tend to play tight then loosen dramatically, bad players tend to just play a linear range and stick with it no matter what. basically like you touched on, information on HUDs is only as good as the person using that info.
 
mbrenneman0

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when you say your strategy to loosen up when youre short, do you mean when you are short compared to other stacks, or short based on big blinds or m factor?

You should base your strategy on your number of big blinds. you could have the least chips and still have 20 big blinds. and when you are short, position is still extremely important. by the time you get to 4 handed, you should have a feeling for the table, and every time you shove, you should be thinking, do I want people to call my shove, or do I want them to fold so I can pick up the blinds? like with KK you would want people to call, with A2, you might be better off if people fold (this depends on how loose or tight the other players are too) then once you decide how you want people to react to your shove, then decide if they are going to react that way. if you need every to fold, and theres a raise infront of you, then is the original raiser going to fold to your shove? probably not...
 
biaavia

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I very ofren was in same situations, and now I doing that,I wait and throw all hands.Only if I have strong poket pair I go All in.And it is very helpfull for me.
 
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when you say your strategy to loosen up when youre short, do you mean when you are short compared to other stacks, or short based on big blinds or m factor?

You should base your strategy on your number of big blinds. you could have the least chips and still have 20 big blinds. and when you are short, position is still extremely important. by the time you get to 4 handed, you should have a feeling for the table, and every time you shove, you should be thinking, do I want people to call my shove, or do I want them to fold so I can pick up the blinds? like with KK you would want people to call, with A2, you might be better off if people fold (this depends on how loose or tight the other players are too) then once you decide how you want people to react to your shove, then decide if they are going to react that way. if you need every to fold, and theres a raise infront of you, then is the original raiser going to fold to your shove? probably not...

This is SNG, so you should base your decisions on both, but mainly i would base my decisions on how short our stack is compared to others (ICM)
 
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You correctly recommended. We need aggressive tactics of the last table. Read the recommendations in the articles on poker. The smaller players remain for the final table, the wider range of hands. In the case it is not only the average offsuit, but small. If you are nervous and afraid then sit and wait for a good map .This is your choice
 
rooney1919

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Hello I am just writing this topic to ask a question on how to prevent losing on the bubble so many times. I know everyone preaches agressive and go all in with good hands when final 4. I was wondering if any of you could help me I generally only call with a10+ or 88+ on the bubble but will shove lighter if I'm short stacked and feel I can succeed on a big stack increase although it's actually crazy how much I am bubbling in last 16 games bubbled 9 won 2 2nd2 and 3 once idk if this just comes with being aggressive or should I readjust my strategy to become more profitable


I only had like 20 and Ik this is small but what Is a good amount for when I grind from freerolls again and try to take another shot at beating them all


Just looking for any tips in general for more success late in the game

Bubble is a push or fold phase.No call, no limp.
You play with your position, not with your cards :p
 
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Try to read Harrington, did not appear to such questions.
 
TeUnit

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the easiest way to learn this is to work with a icm calculator like sng wiz or icmizer

you also want to understand the villans ranges and change them in the calculator to get the best results
 
jgreenman18

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Bubble is a push or fold phase.No call, no limp.
You play with your position, not with your cards :p


I disagree with this If you are on the bubble four handed and everyone has 25+ bb this is in no way a push fold game. There still should be raises of 3x in my mind and post flop play.
 
jgreenman18

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Although however I agree with the game so short handed position is a very powerful tool that must be exploited.
 
jgreenman18

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the easiest way to learn this is to work with a icm calculator like sng wiz or icmizer

you also want to understand the villans ranges and change them in the calculator to get the best results


Perhaps against truly the best competition this is a good idea but if I can truly understand fishes bet sizing and what it means, then I will be able to take advantage of it more than a calculator. Especially if I notice fish playing an odd combo of hands such as continuing with k2+ but folding 22-66 this is an odd range a calculator does not always use but I have noticed a particular opponent playing this way
 
jgreenman18

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Try to read Harrington, did not appear to such questions.


What do u mean by this what type of advice does he give I have read bits and pieces but have not started his books yet as I feel he is a proponent of nit play
 
jgreenman18

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when you say your strategy to loosen up when youre short, do you mean when you are short compared to other stacks, or short based on big blinds or m factor?

You should base your strategy on your number of big blinds. you could have the least chips and still have 20 big blinds. and when you are short, position is still extremely important. by the time you get to 4 handed, you should have a feeling for the table, and every time you shove, you should be thinking, do I want people to call my shove, or do I want them to fold so I can pick up the blinds? like with KK you would want people to call, with A2, you might be better off if people fold (this depends on how loose or tight the other players are too) then once you decide how you want people to react to your shove, then decide if they are going to react that way. if you need every to fold, and theres a raise infront of you, then is the original raiser going to fold to your shove? probably not...


I meant short in regard to bb mainly. I found this interesting but I do not know about your one point a raiser will not fold if all the play looks like a steal attempt and you shove on him to apply pressure I believe he still will fold a vast majority of the time allowing you to pick up an even bigger pot honestly even in 4 handed I try to avoid those weak aces if I can to avoid being in awful shape and being dominated. But I agree that in position is very powerful and allows you for more shove steals if blinds are very high.
 
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