So its bad to limp and all right..?

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Eclipsenz

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As the title says.. and I agree 100 percent.. and I always hear limping on the button is so weak, if you are gonna play a hand, fold or raise, no limping! yadeyadyada, I know the deal..

But what about micros.. cause I find if you do raise a weakish hand stealing blind you always get callers or even get donked reraised all the time.. is it better to just play like a nit till the blinds get better then open up.

I dunno.. I hate micros.. and I'm pretty much in the money.. always.. they're small picking I'm just building my BR.. but its stilla bitter and slow process.

I have just found every time I try to semi bluff the value of my hand I always get a calling station and it pretty much stuffs up my play cause lets me honest some donks just call with anything... and fish and fish and fish and fish theres no pushing em off.

I agree with limping as a no no at higher limits but micros.. yeah nah I've found its just bitten me in the ass more than anything, there are some games where I can get away with it however..
 
tomh7795

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Don't steal the blinds in micros. it should be a raise or a fold preflop. Espically on the button.
 
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Pokertron3000

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Don't steal the blinds in micros. it should be a raise or a fold preflop. Espically on the button.

Sort of this, at the micros you want to try and just play solid poker for a while get used to hands, positions other players etc. Try and fairly inactive at the start unless the hand/situation calls for it because chances are your getting called by multiple people with some :S hands. If your going out of your games really early you are doing it wrong.

Its when you get towards the endgame and blinds are worth stealing you can try and target some passive/weak players or stacks that have much to lose and not much to gain by calling your raise, things like playing players repeatedlly and making notes can help you out with this.
 
dwolfg

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Poker is a situation specific game, so there are times when limping, even from the button, may be warranted. As a general rule though, yes limping is a negative ev play.
 
KyleJRM

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If your hand is good enough to play (i.e. it has a good chance of being the best hand at showdown) and your opponents are calling stations, why wouldn't you want to put more money into the pot?
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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Since when are we supposed to be complaining about fish and calling stations? Play tight, do not get stuck to your AK that doesn't hit the flop, analyze situations, which you don't even have to do much in micros, and it should be such easy cash.

The day you start dismissing the fish as a good thing in poker is the day you lose your poker card. Idk who you have to give it up too.. maybe tenbob? /:
 
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Eclipsenz

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Yeah nah thnx for the input guys everything thats been said I pretty much do anyways, and yeah I've made notes on the players i.e players who fold if they don't have top pair etc,.. I normally cash but sometimes I get that over confidence and try semi bluff a lil too much and then I get knocked out before the bubble, the next game however I return to basics and its all good.

And I'm not complaining bout the fish and calling stations it is annoying when a particular player busts your good hand tho but more often than not yeah you will be on the recieving end on a pay out

This kinda play annoys me though

Blinds are 15/30

I have JJ on BB.

Person from MP raises 4bb. 4 people behind him call.. I'm thinking bout reraising but meh I just flat call.

Flop comes

2d 8h 10d

I raise 300 first to act.

Everyone folds except for the initial raiser who shoves all in.. I'm like wtf ok you have nothing,..

He shows Ah, 5h.

Turn comes a heart and river is a another heart which gives him runner runner flush.. senseless play like that annoys me.

Its like people know they're behind but yet they still call i.e take this mtt I did yesterday, my god that was the best game I ever played I was even 18th out of 300 which was initially a 1000 ppl field at one stage,,

I got pocket queens person minraised in ep I reraised, he reraised back I'm like wtf you don't have higher pockets, we both go all in he has me covered by about 10k he shows 10s and gets set on the river.. I suppose its to be expected at micros but yeah... frustrating especially since the only way I get knocked out of any sng or mtt is off a bad beat of a 2 or 4 outer or something similar,
 
Drunkard912

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I like the limping idea. It gives you a chance to steal after the flop if they check. It also keeps the pot small.
 
KyleJRM

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I like the limping idea. It gives you a chance to steal after the flop if they check. It also keeps the pot small.

Why do you want to keep the pot small?

Big pots is a chance for big mistakes. I believe my opponents will make more mistakes than I will, therefore more big mistakes is good for me.
 
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depending on table dynamics, position and type of game I often limp with premium hands trying to catch someone stealing. Sometimes this backfires but often times you are able to get a lot more chips then if you had raised.
 
KyleJRM

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depending on table dynamics, position and type of game I often limp with premium hands trying to catch someone stealing. Sometimes this backfires but often times you are able to get a lot more chips then if you had raised.

That right there is the only acceptable time to limp.

Even then, I'm not a big fan of it, because you have to do it with other hands too or it becomes too transparent.
 
Elie_Yammine

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If your hand is good enough to play (i.e. it has a good chance of being the best hand at showdown) and your opponents are calling stations, why wouldn't you want to put more money into the pot?

Because many times you put much more money in the pot with AK or KK or KQs or whatever monster hand u have, and there's just no pushing the fishies and maniacs with 2-7o or Q-5 or 7-T or whatever shit hand they have!But there's a great chance that they will flop trips or 2 pairs while you stand there with the "best" high ace since there are so many callers so our good probability is much less effective this way! that's why!

micro play just can't be understood!the luck factor over there is about 90% as most of the people are more interested in playing bingo then poker! so yes, i do believe that although limping isn't an option in higher games or live games, at the micros it's the only way to win some decent money! cuz u cant value bet and win unless ure sure u have the nuts or something to bet with! not pre-flop...
 
KyleJRM

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Everything you just posted is incorrect.

There is not a "great chance" their hand will hit the flop harder than your hand. The reason your hand is a good hand is *because* it will likely be better after the flop, after the turn, and after the river.

Limping at the micros is bad, bad, bad, bad play.

Here's what happens when you raise preflop and they call with rags. Four possibilities:

1) Your hand hits and their hand misses. You bet, they probably fold, but maybe not because they are bad, and either way you make some money.

2) Their hand hits and your hand misses. You don't pay them another cent and they barely make anything.

3) Both hands hit, but you are still well ahead because you have the better hand. They are a calling station and will pay you off on every street. Hooray for money!

4) Both hands hit but they hit harder and are ahead. You probably have redraws and if you are any good postflop, you should be able to get away if they show aggression.

1 and 2 will happen equally often. 3 will happen way more often than 4. The average is big profit for you and big losses for them.
 
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Eclipsenz

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^^^ How often do you play micros? Cause unless your fortunate enough to avoid the players I end up playing alll the time.

In your first scenario, your right if they bet, they fold.. BUT if theres a flush draw or straight draw for them, its impossible to push some off they will hang all the way to the river. I mean what I do is probably bet 3-4 bb on the flop, all in on the turn if I know they fish.. normally that works.

In scenario 2.

There are times when you make a continuation bet yes?>

What if I raise 4bb with ak or whatever. flop comes 2,3,7.

You think your good right and you push and push?.. guess what they called you with, oh A-7,

Scenario 3 - If they have something they will call even if they are behind, so many have this mentality that the bad hand always catches up so they stick to that philosophy.. I can list probably 100 scenarios in the past month where I have been literally MILES ahead and get busted on turn and river,.. this is what happened to me about an hour ago.

I had A,k in MP I raise 3bb, person on the button calls

Flop - 3s Ah 7d

I bet 5 bb, on flop

he calls

turn is 9d

I bet 8bb on the turn

he calls.

river comes 6d

I raise he goes all in, turns out he had kd3d so he had the outside flush draw, he hung all the way through the hand on bottom pair..



Lastly scenario 4..

And what the **** if they have the nuts theres no shoving em off they don't think about any other possibilities like somebody hitting a set, higher kicker or what not,
 
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KyleJRM

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^^^ How often do you play micros? Cause unless your fortunate enough to avoid the players I end up playing alll the time.

I'm not "fortunate." I'm (sort of) good at poker. I'm playing the micros right now. Below this post is my PT graph for the 21k hands of NL4 and NL10 I've played in the last two weeks. I'm not even that good and I'm crushing the penny stakes pretty hard with simple, ABC poker.


In your first scenario, your right if they bet, they fold.. BUT if theres a flush draw or straight draw for them, its impossible to push some off they will hang all the way to the river. I mean what I do is probably bet 3-4 bb on the flop, all in on the turn if I know they fish.. normally that works.

GOOD! I don't want them to fold. I want them to call. They can pay me for the 65% of the time their draw doesn't hit, and then I won't pay them off when their draw does hit, so everybody wins. Plus, since I play a tighter range of hands, occasionally we'll both be going for the flush and I will be overflushing him.

There are times when you make a continuation bet yes?>

What if I raise 4bb with ak or whatever. flop comes 2,3,7.

You think your good right and you push and push?.. guess what they called you with, oh A-7,

Absolutely not. I do not continuation bet against players I don't think will fold. In the micros, you should be c-betting a lot less. I frequently skip the c-bet in an all low flop.

Lastly scenario 4..

And what the **** if they have the nuts theres no shoving em off they don't think about any other possibilities like somebody hitting a set, higher kicker or what not,

Then don't try to shove them off. Fold and wait for a better chance.


I'm seriously thinking about writing a short e-book about how to crush the micros with simple ABC poker. It's the absolute basics of poker, but we constantly get complaints from people who aren't beating the micros but don't want to listen to the people who are :)
 

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steveestewart

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Well, I'm always in the money at micros and Ive found that a little of both seems to work. Like someone said: poker is situation specific and playing off the table is key. Some tables, I'll raise everything I play and get a couple callers, but once you make a C-Bet (which a favored hand), they fold (of course every once in a while you get burned by donks chasing the gold.. but thats poker...). You can't be afraid to fold. Scaring people off at the micros burns you more than it does them. Don't be afraid to fold and wait for a better opportunity. At other tables, when everyone is calling everything, I don't waste money by raising. Sure, it raises the pot, but Ive found when you have a guy or two that calls everything and will even re-raise you to the river, you end up losing more money then you would win with the 'big' pots.

You have to play a couple hands and see what players are calling with and then play accordingly. To say raise everything at micros, loses me money over time, but limping can lose money too. Just try and read the table, then go from there.
 
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Eclipsenz

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Hey I'm not claiming I'm having difficulty at the micros like others, I almost consistently cash, only times I don't is when I get donked out on or having extremely bad runs of missing or being card dead all together, not making excuses but yeah I aswell think I'm 'ok' at poker and always working on ma game, btw nl4 and nl10 arn't what I'd consider micros, whilst still be low limits it even says in plain black and white on poker software that micros is nl4 or less, theres much better play while still consisting of donkeys, they don't 'donk' as much at the nl10 you speak of.


Your whole hope of getting good cash in a tourney can be gone in one had with someone drawing to the river.. they miss 65% of the time still not really self assuring :|

I did take note of your c-betting theory though.. but what if they missed aswell and just betted cause they have position?.. I suppose thats where reads come in and all though right?

I still disagree with you shvoing people off the ultimate nuts though, I still retract to my previous statement in saying that it is impossible and there is no better spot, like I said they don't consider other possibilities on the board and if they have TPTK or even 2 pairs.. they will sheriff you no matter what,
 
-Phil Ivey27

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Hey I'm not claiming I'm having difficulty at the micros like others, I almost consistently cash, only times I don't is when I get donked out on or having extremely bad runs of missing or being card dead all together, not making excuses but yeah I aswell think I'm 'ok' at poker and always working on ma game, btw nl4 and nl10 arn't what I'd consider micros, whilst still be low limits it even says in plain black and white on poker software that micros is nl4 or less, theres much better play while still consisting of donkeys, they don't 'donk' as much at the nl10 you speak of.


Your whole hope of getting good cash in a tourney can be gone in one had with someone drawing to the river.. they miss 65% of the time still not really self assuring :|

I did take note of your c-betting theory though.. but what if they missed aswell and just betted cause they have position?.. I suppose thats where reads come in and all though right?

I still disagree with you shvoing people off the ultimate nuts though, I still retract to my previous statement in saying that it is impossible and there is no better spot, like I said they don't consider other possibilities on the board and if they have TPTK or even 2 pairs.. they will sheriff you no matter what,

Sir, this above ^^ is called poker.

You're going to play against nits, you will play against maniacs, and you will play against extremely good players who can read your cards without using any special glasses.

Do not take these fish for granted. They suck out on you, so what?
Are you not admitting here that you are a succeeding micro limits player?

One has to adjust to every type of poker player, and fish are the easiest kind! :D
 
IveGot0uts

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In the micros 20/5/1 is where its at. Raise when you can do it for value, get in with the crowd of clowns for cheap when you can, and let them call too damn much when you make the nuts. Unless things have changed from my micros time they will snap call your overbet shove so often with TPTK and 2 pair holdings.

In short yes to value town, but I advocate for limping in quite a few hands that are prone to making monsters. You always get odds to chase a nut flush draw or oesd, and you always get paid.

I've had the same thoughts about the ebooking kyle, sadly I would have to go back and play them again to make sure my style was still valid. Once upon a time though murdered my way through the micro-micros like I was Atilla on roids. And now I can't seem to get my crap all the way together to move to 50nl:-/
 
PattyR

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Don't steal the blinds in micros. it should be a raise or a fold preflop. Espically on the button.

i disagree and think stealing the blinds improves winrate (i know it does for me)

also raise with ATC on the button pretty much...i get enough folds to justify in doing so..why not raise from the most profitable position everytime?
 
TheKAAHK

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Though I totally agree that limping as never any good, there are times when it is a winnng strategy.

Bare with me here. I've been playing alot of .11c SNG's at betfair recently and I found that raising is a total waste of chips. Everyone and their momma is going to call you for at least the first three rounds. Couple that with the fact that most micro players either overbet or underbet their hands, and getting in cheap becomes more appealing as I can get a better handle on the other players range.

Getting in cheap (in position of course), staying in cheap, and value betting the river has so far worked for me. I'm 6 for 8 in cashes in my last 8 games according to sharkscope.

I play like a rock for the first ;evel or two or three, just observing my opponents, letting the riff raff expose themselves and beat up on eachother. Occasionally limping the top 50% hands (wide range, I know), and hitting cheap flops keeps me up with the blinds, and if I hit hard, I bet it hard, assured that I'll probably get paid off for at least one or two streets. If I just flop mid, I can act accordingly if someone bets, or just check behind and value bet the river.

As the game wares on, I start raising more and limping less, and narrowing my range accordingly. When the blinds get to the 150/300 I don't to face a threebet shove from a shortstack while holding K 10 or a similar hand. This progresses until I'm on a raise/fold only mode. So far so good.
 
TheKAAHK

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4 for 4 tonight. Check it out. donk foo @Betfair.

Can't speak for cash, but it's working well in SNG's.
 
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Eclipsenz

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^^^ thanks dude, I do something well should I say did.. do something very similar to how you go about it, for some reason I've ventured off it, but yeah I whole heartedly agree that this is how you go about micros since like you said everyone and their mother is gonna call you and thats frustrated me big time, adjusted my play etc and it hasn't got better its got worse at the micros will try this kinda strat/theory tommorow and let ya'll know how I go
 
Elie_Yammine

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Everything you just posted is incorrect.

There is not a "great chance" their hand will hit the flop harder than your hand. The reason your hand is a good hand is *because* it will likely be better after the flop, after the turn, and after the river.

Limping at the micros is bad, bad, bad, bad play.

Here's what happens when you raise preflop and they call with rags. Four possibilities:

1) Your hand hits and their hand misses. You bet, they probably fold, but maybe not because they are bad, and either way you make some money.

2) Their hand hits and your hand misses. You don't pay them another cent and they barely make anything.

3) Both hands hit, but you are still well ahead because you have the better hand. They are a calling station and will pay you off on every street. Hooray for money!

4) Both hands hit but they hit harder and are ahead. You probably have redraws and if you are any good postflop, you should be able to get away if they show aggression.

1 and 2 will happen equally often. 3 will happen way more often than 4. The average is big profit for you and big losses for them.

5)Your hand hits hard and their hand misses! You bet big they call!You bet again and they call again because they don't know the first thing about poker!just to reveal they toyota'ed your ass on an unbelievable flush!

^^^^This happens much more than we'd like it to! It's disgusting because you were supposed to get your money in good and you didn't because he's a bad player!whereas a good player would have folded earlier and you would have won!I'm an agressive player who relies on bluffing!And if you ask me, I'd much rather play with a player who understands the most basic concepts of poker rather than with a fish!
 
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pol_92121

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in the micros i think is difficult to stole the blinds because the money at stake are few and so you probably receive more calls or raise that a much money
 
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