SnG strategy not working :(

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canadave

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Hi folks, I usually play 18-man SNG's, and have been losing badly. What's killing me is that I feel like I'm "following the right strategy". Maybe someone can give some good advice here.

First of all, I usually do pretty well in the early to mid stages. I'm TAG, I don't overplay hands, and I'm often sitting at something like 6th or better out of 16 or so by the time we enter the middle of the tourney.

This is when everything starts to unravel. Or, if it doesn't unravel, it unravels by the end of the tourney. Let me explain.

Everything I've read, and I mean everything, says that you need to be more aggressive once the blinds start getting high. And if you're gonna raise, shove rather than just minraise. Okay, I'm doing that.

But this is what always happens:

1. If I wait until I have a good hand before going all in, I usually wind up waiting too long and other people are more aggressive. That usually results in me either blinded out, or puts me at a disadvantage against larger stacks who end up bouncing me from the tourney when the guy's pair of deuces in the BB position beats my AK suited.

2. If I go all in more often, with just semi-decent hands, then I may win a few blinds because no one calls; but then at some point along the line, I'll be called by someone with a better hand and a bigger stack, and I'll be bounced from the tourney.

3. If I go all in from the button while trying to steal blinds, I'll often be able to steal successfully. But I'll also get called often enough by players in the blinds, and wind up getting bounced out of the tournament when the coin flip doesn't go my way. Then it seems pointless to me to have risked and lost my entire stack, just to try to steal the blinds; yet that's what I keep reading that I should be doing. Mind you, too, I'm taking great care not to be "obvious" when I try to steal; I don't steal every time I'm on the button, I'll often wait for a few orbits before trying to steal, I don't always try to steal on certain stack sizes, etc.

EDIT: Okay, perfect example just now. Mid stages of tourney, blinds 100/200. I'm on the button, and haven't played a hand in about 5 orbits, have been folding everything because I've had only junk. I'm at around 1,600 chips, SB is at 2000 chips, BB is at 1650 chips. I shove with J-10 suited; my first all-in in the entire game so far, a game in which I've been playing passively. So to another player, I could have AA for all they know, right? But the BB calls with AQ offsuit, and I lose when the Q hits, and I'm bounced from the tourney. My first thought is, well, I shouldn't have gone all in, right? I mean I could've just waited for a better hand, and THEN go all in. But then if I do that, I wind up waiting too long, and I lose anyway more often than not.

Now then--let's say I somehow manage to overcome these obstacles and make it to the ITM group. At this point, it seems to ALWAYS be the case that I'm being too cautious compared to the other players. They're going all in more frequently than I am, because I'm waiting for AQ suited, JJ pair or higher, etc. So I know their shove range must be bigger than mine. But if I try to match their wider shove range myself, and shove with half-decent cards as opposed to great cards (like AJ offsuit, KQ offsuit, etc), then I may win one or two, but it only takes one loss, and then I'm out.

So I'm sort of in no man's land here. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
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Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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early game sounds right.

play TAG and try to maintain an average stack, or at least a starting stack.

when it starts to get "bubbly" usually 1-2 people from the money, this is also a time when the blinds and antes are big.

I agree that, generally speaking due to stack sizes it is usually correct to just open shove instead of make a standard raise.

Sounds to me like you are just waiting for "real" premium hands instead of picking hands based on your position and who is in the blinds. This can result in you not having enough chips to really threaten anybody's stack when you finally go all in, and you'll get a bunch of light calls. Light callers are death in SnGs.

Identify a couple of players who's blinds you think you can steal. Tight passive players who aren't too short and who seem afraid of bubbling are a good target. When they are in the BB, open-shove any decent hand including hands like A9s, KJo, 66 etc.

Obviously table position and chip position matters. if the big stack who never folds is on your direct left its going to be very tough to steal blinds....so you'll want hands that likely have him dominated (AK, AQ or pairs.)

It is imperative that you start gobbling up more than your fair share of blinds, and that you do it while your stack size is still dangerous enough to really threaten the other players....at least the players to your left. Usually, you'll have tremendous fold equity. You'll ship with KJo and 88 and KQ will find a fold. sometimes even AJ will fold (if they are a good player and you're not getting out of line they SHOULD fold AJ in this type of situation).
 
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canadave

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Identify a couple of players who's blinds you think you can steal. Tight passive players who aren't too short and who seem afraid of bubbling are a good target. When they are in the BB, open-shove any decent hand including hands like A9s, KJo, 66 etc.
Thanks--but see, that's the problem I'm facing. I do exactly that. The BB then folds, EXCEPT when they have what they think is a decent hand--and sometimes they're right. So here's what winds up happening--either (1) I steal a couple of blinds on my shoves, and then run into AA or KK; or (2) I steal a couple of blinds, and then the guy decides to call my KJo with his A3o, and he wins and I'm out. Yes, once in a while I win those coin flips, but the combination of my losses in situation 1 and 2 is more than my coin flip wins.

I don't know...maybe part of it is the money level I'm playing at ($3.50). It seems as though at that level (and maybe it's not so bad at higher levels, I dunno), even the most passive player will call my all-in with Ax or something similarly good in his mind.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Thanks--but see, that's the problem I'm facing. I do exactly that. The BB then folds, EXCEPT when they have what they think is a decent hand--and sometimes they're right. So here's what winds up happening--either (1) I steal a couple of blinds on my shoves, and then run into AA or KK; or (2) I steal a couple of blinds, and then the guy decides to call my KJo with his A3o, and he wins and I'm out. Yes, once in a while I win those coin flips, but the combination of my losses in situation 1 and 2 is more than my coin flip wins.

I don't know...maybe part of it is the money level I'm playing at ($3.50). It seems as though at that level (and maybe it's not so bad at higher levels, I dunno), even the most passive player will call my all-in with Ax or something similarly good in his mind.

Well there's no strategy that will guarantee these outcomes don't happen to you. sometimes they're gonna wake up with a hand when you shove into them. it sucks, and it happens. But sometimes you'll get it in bad and then suck out, too.

the other day I jammed my 55 on the button in a SnG and the BB calls me with AA and I flop a set and take him out and move to the chip lead. We were both correct in our play, and it worked out in my favor.

You seem to think its a bad thing when you jam into them and "only win the binds" (which is the desired result) and you seem to think it is also a bad thing when you jam into them and they call. (which is almost always a bad result).

If you are doing this at the proper stage, then simply winning the blinds should be very significant. And you don't need to do this a ton...twice every 2 or 3 orbits is fine while you wait for "real" hands. so between steals and "real" hands you might jam 5 times in 4 orbits. 4 times with marginal holdings that tend to have about 40% equity on average when called, and once with a real hand that will tend to have 60-80% equity when called. But when you add your fold equity to your actual hand equity, you should be adding quite a few chips to your stack. That is what SnGs are all about. FOLD EQUITY. if you are sitting at a table where nobody folds, then adjust your pushing requirements. We all get knocked out a fair amount on the bubble if we're doing it right.
 
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post some problems hands here. i'd be happy to look over a few whole tournament HH for you. or post whole tournament HH here and you will have a few players look over it. without seeing hands, i'd be just speculating/giving pointless advise about where you might be going wrong.

you can't just follow a sng strategy these days and expect to win, you really need to think for yourself, develop your own strategy, and be able to outplay regs. it sounds hard to beat "regs", but at the end of the day, most of them are using the same strategy you are talking about.
 
Arjonius

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It strikes me as curious that all three mid-tournament situations you list involve shoving, and that your example has you entering the mid-stages after only two people have been eliminated.

So it seems you're reduced to shove-fold poker after only a couple of players have busted even when your stack is in the top half of the field. I don't play these SNGs so am not familiar with them. Is this what normally happens?
 
kidkvno1

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post some problems hands here. i'd be happy to look over a few whole tournament HH for you. or post whole tournament HH here and you will have a few players look over it. without seeing hands, i'd be just speculating/giving pointless advise about where you might be going wrong.

you can't just follow a sng strategy these days and expect to win, you really need to think for yourself, develop your own strategy, and be able to outplay regs. it sounds hard to beat "regs", but at the end of the day, most of them are using the same strategy you are talking about.
^^ +1 to this.

Also try stealing from the SB.
 
the lab man

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It strikes me as curious that all three mid-tournament situations you list involve shoving, and that your example has you entering the mid-stages after only two people have been eliminated.

So it seems you're reduced to shove-fold poker after only a couple of players have busted even when your stack is in the top half of the field. I don't play these SNGs so am not familiar with them. Is this what normally happens?

Push fold strategy comes in to play at 10-12x blinds.
Assuming these are turbos?
OP please post some hands, it looks like you may be playing too tight,regs range will increase at last stages in position.
Post some hands
 
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WiZZiM

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haven't played many 18mans, but yeah they tend to enter mid stages with only a few gone.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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EDIT: Okay, perfect example just now. Mid stages of tourney, blinds 100/200. I'm on the button, and haven't played a hand in about 5 orbits, have been folding everything because I've had only junk. I'm at around 1,600 chips, SB is at 2000 chips, BB is at 1650 chips. I shove with J-10 suited; my first all-in in the entire game so far, a game in which I've been playing passively. So to another player, I could have AA for all they know, right? But the BB calls with AQ offsuit, and I lose when the Q hits, and I'm bounced from the tourney. My first thought is, well, I shouldn't have gone all in, right? I mean I could've just waited for a better hand, and THEN go all in. But then if I do that, I wind up waiting too long, and I lose anyway more often than

Yes, you absolutely should have shoved on the button there. No doubt. You have 8bb and a tight image. In fact, with that stack and that image I'd shove any pair, any A, any K, Q5+, J7+, T8+

They woke up with a hand, oh well. You still had roughly 40% equity when you got it in as the aggressor, and I bet they fold QJ and QT maybe even KJ or KT.

Don't let a bad result trick you into making bad decisions.


My gut is you haven't played enough of these yet to have a good feel for the variance.
 
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WiZZiM

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it's not so much our image we're concerned about jacki, moreso the blinds, and what we percieve that they will call with. regardless JT is a shove because it's a relatively "safe" hand. but in terms of range, this could be an ATC spot if you have tight blinds, or it could be a tighter range you say above. also, sometimes even when we have 8bb we could be doing well in the tournament, you have to look at other stacks and see how our stack relates to them. So sometimes here with 8bb and we are second in chips, we might want to tighten up, because the blinds might call us wider (or whatever the situation, just an example)

you can have a baseline range for certain spots here, like your range of the above seems reasonable, probably on the loose side of things, but we need to adjust that based on the blinds.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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it's not so much our image we're concerned about jacki, moreso the blinds, and what we percieve that they will call with. regardless JT is a shove because it's a relatively "safe" hand. but in terms of range, this could be an ATC spot if you have tight blinds, or it could be a tighter range you say above. also, sometimes even when we have 8bb we could be doing well in the tournament, you have to look at other stacks and see how our stack relates to them. So sometimes here with 8bb and we are second in chips, we might want to tighten up, because the blinds might call us wider (or whatever the situation, just an example)
Ill agree that our own image is not a primary consideration in SnG strategy, but it is still something to be considered. for instance, if I had pushed 3 of the last 5 hands I'll fold the bottom of my "baseline range" or if I haven't played a hand in 3 orbits I'll expand my baseline range a smidge.

you can have a baseline range for certain spots here, like your range of the above seems reasonable, probably on the loose side of things, but we need to adjust that based on the blinds.
I totally realize the range I quoted sounds a bit loose, but if you plug it into a calculator it's really only 49% of hands....so you're pushing not even quite half your hands here, on the button, short stacked. If you read SnG strategy many will advocate pushing the top 70-100% of hands in a spot like this. sounds good in theory, but in practice I have tremendous difficulty pushing with 82o and the like. Now, I've done it numerous times when the situation demands and it's amazing how often it works. Usually they fold and sometimes I've even been called by AK and the like and doubled up more times than I can count! The edge you enjoy as the aggressor on the bubble is so big, it almost shouldn't even be legal! (I said almost! ;) )
 
vnonline

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I have some problems just like yours. I usually check out my history hands and try to find my mistakes but I can't see them. Maybe my skill is not good enough to win other people. Actually I just started playing poker in a week, and I found this forums, it helped me alot. Hope you guys would share your experience and especially I would like to know how to keep patience in game.
 
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Ill agree that our own image is not a primary consideration in SnG strategy, but it is still something to be considered. for instance, if I had pushed 3 of the last 5 hands I'll fold the bottom of my "baseline range" or if I haven't played a hand in 3 orbits I'll expand my baseline range a smidge.

ya i understand where your coming from. but peoples calling ranges are generally pretty static, meaning it really doesn't matter if we have a tight image here, they will call with whatever because "it's a nice looking hand" or because "my nash chart said to call". i agree with the example you gave, but you don't want to think about it too much in game, or you will talk yourself out of profitable spots. expanding ranges because we have played tight in the last few orbits isn't a great reason. a better reason might be that the blinds are going up within one minute, or we're about to be hit by the blinds so i shove a touch wider

I totally realize the range I quoted sounds a bit loose, but if you plug it into a calculator it's really only 49% of hands....so you're pushing not even quite half your hands here, on the button, short stacked. If you read SnG strategy many wlfill advocate pushing the top 70-100% of hands in a spot like this. sounds good in theory, but in practice I have tremendous difficulty pushing with 82o and the like. Now, I've done it numerous times when the situation demands and it's amazing how often it works. Usually they fold and sometimes I've even been called by AK and the like and doubled up more times than I can count! The edge you enjoy as the aggressor on the bubble is so big, it almost shouldn't even be legal! (I said almost! ;) )

yeah i really don't think many people/books would advocate 70-100 with 8bb on the button vs randoms. your range sounded a bit looser than it was, 50% seems about right, but i'd fold out some of my weaker kx and qx hands and include more "safe hands" like 86s and such, as they play better when called and we're less likely to be dominated.

when you see the 70-100% ranges, it's usually when we are in the sb in an unopened pot with 10bb's. most old poker books recommend shoving 80-100% of hands here because "opponents dont call wide enough". that's not true these days, players are calling a lot wider than they did 2-4 years ago and we have to adjust to the averages. they call wider either because they are smart and know we're shoving loose, or because they are what i call "lucky smart" where they call with the appropriate range because they don't care, or because they really think their hand looks pretty.

anyways, for the most part it's better to be more aggressive than more passive, so OP, shove more, steal more, make more money.
 
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A lot of the time your opponents will be multi-tabling, so they will have little or no idea of the fact that you are a tight player. In effect it means that there is more luck in these SNGs.
My experience is that the higher buy-in tournaments reward the thinking player more than the small buy-in SNGs. I know that goes against the advice given by the majority of posters on all sites.
 
el_magiciann

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Hi folks, I usually play 18-man SNG's, and have been losing badly. What's killing me is that I feel like I'm "following the right strategy". Maybe someone can give some good advice here.

First of all, I usually do pretty well in the early to mid stages. I'm TAG, I don't overplay hands, and I'm often sitting at something like 6th or better out of 16 or so by the time we enter the middle of the tourney.

This is when everything starts to unravel. Or, if it doesn't unravel, it unravels by the end of the tourney. Let me explain.

Everything I've read, and I mean everything, says that you need to be more aggressive once the blinds start getting high. And if you're gonna raise, shove rather than just minraise. Okay, I'm doing that.

But this is what always happens:

1. If I wait until I have a good hand before going all in, I usually wind up waiting too long and other people are more aggressive. That usually results in me either blinded out, or puts me at a disadvantage against larger stacks who end up bouncing me from the tourney when the guy's pair of deuces in the BB position beats my AK suited.

2. If I go all in more often, with just semi-decent hands, then I may win a few blinds because no one calls; but then at some point along the line, I'll be called by someone with a better hand and a bigger stack, and I'll be bounced from the tourney.

3. If I go all in from the button while trying to steal blinds, I'll often be able to steal successfully. But I'll also get called often enough by players in the blinds, and wind up getting bounced out of the tournament when the coin flip doesn't go my way. Then it seems pointless to me to have risked and lost my entire stack, just to try to steal the blinds; yet that's what I keep reading that I should be doing. Mind you, too, I'm taking great care not to be "obvious" when I try to steal; I don't steal every time I'm on the button, I'll often wait for a few orbits before trying to steal, I don't always try to steal on certain stack sizes, etc.

EDIT: Okay, perfect example just now. Mid stages of tourney, blinds 100/200. I'm on the button, and haven't played a hand in about 5 orbits, have been folding everything because I've had only junk. I'm at around 1,600 chips, SB is at 2000 chips, BB is at 1650 chips. I shove with J-10 suited; my first all-in in the entire game so far, a game in which I've been playing passively. So to another player, I could have AA for all they know, right? But the BB calls with AQ offsuit, and I lose when the Q hits, and I'm bounced from the tourney. My first thought is, well, I shouldn't have gone all in, right? I mean I could've just waited for a better hand, and THEN go all in. But then if I do that, I wind up waiting too long, and I lose anyway more often than not.

Now then--let's say I somehow manage to overcome these obstacles and make it to the ITM group. At this point, it seems to ALWAYS be the case that I'm being too cautious compared to the other players. They're going all in more frequently than I am, because I'm waiting for AQ suited, JJ pair or higher, etc. So I know their shove range must be bigger than mine. But if I try to match their wider shove range myself, and shove with half-decent cards as opposed to great cards (like AJ offsuit, KQ offsuit, etc), then I may win one or two, but it only takes one loss, and then I'm out.

So I'm sort of in no man's land here. Any advice would be appreciated.

From what i've seen at your example your J10s is worse than AQoff and you are correct to lose, the worst situation is when you have AQ vs J10 AND YOU LOSE AGAIN, that's what is happening to me all day long :) So, just be more carefull with your pushes and if you feel unlucky at coin flips then you can avoid them. Good luck at the tables!
 
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You lose cause you dont know how to play, but don't worry you will learn as soon as you played more. And remember in shorthanded in 18 players its enough to double up your stack 1 time and to wait for a final table (just keep your chips from the blinds) and dont get nervious
 
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I think in sitngo like in tourneys the best is To play agressive right on the start
 
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Just a thought if your playing turbos and your renowned to playing push fold poker STOP!

Its nothing more than a gamble with more swings than you can imagine...
turbo sit n go grinding is largely dependant on statistics, ranges and percentages.
you are pretty much playing a push or fold game which is almost like a completely different brand of poker.
it is beatable but you need to know your shuve ranges and a good knowledge of poker tracker to maximise your profits. Without this you will struggle to get your push fold call range perfect.

Essentially if you play normal blind games you have alot more hands and alot more time ti capitlise on players observe players accumalate chips .

sorry if you dont play turbos but my initial thoughts were you must be playing a fair few turbos
 
eidikos

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in my opinion you dont have to wait a premium hand to shove once in a while to get the blinds or to go in a coinflip (most of times) showdown.the blinds in this stage are high and you dont have the option to wait that kind of premium hands.

what you have to do here is try to steal the blinds,playing your position and your opponents.
also you have to play some post flop hands here.try to improve your post flop game by playing some heads up sng's
 
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For me there is no Strategy for MTTs...You just have to make the right decisions and make sure that youre not making mistakes. If you fold and bet to the right time, its really easy to get at the small stakes ITM. Just play how you feel. If you have a good Stake try to play most of the hands and try to play aggressive. You have to get into a good MTT-Mood.
 
Ronaldadio

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Have we found out what the stakes are, or have I missed this?
I'm also assuming NLHE + turbos?
 
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1: It's incorrect to wait for a good hand before going all in. It's all about what are going to be profitable shoves and calls on certain stack sizes. Being blinded out so often makes me believe you're probably making incorrect decisions and begin way to tight towards to the later stages way, way to often and all the regs will be picking up on that and likely shoving a massive range probably close to 100% vs you which of course is right to do just given how much you fold. You then finally pick up AK but are so short that the BB is getting the right price to call with any two cards.

2: When you say going in with semi-decent hands, it really does depend on how deep you are, your position and the range of hands. If you're just randomly picking a hand that "looks good" and have no reason for shoving other than that then you're making massive mistakes. Also, your range for shoving when there are no antes in play should be much tighter, if there are antes in play then picking up the blinds + antes is massive to your stack. It doesn't matter if someone is calling you with better hands if you're shoving correctly, that's just variance so don't focus on results just +EV plays.

3: As I said, I think you're making massive mistakes on certain stack sizes. I mean, you're not giving any real information other than "just shoving" like, we need to know whos in the BB for example, how deep we are, are we nearing the bubble etcetc so many things to consider. It's correct though you should be shoving wide, folding and being to tight might just about beat micros but you won't profit anything decent. SnG is all about late game play for maximum profits.



Your example is perfectly fine to shove that hand. Definitely profitable. No, not at all should a player think you have AA, or very small part of your range when you're on a 7.5BB stack size. His call with AQo is by far standard... just variance.

AJo/KQo hands are not half-decent hands, they are monster hands if you're shoving on a short stack which I assume you will be and there are antes in play. When so short, you should be shoving so many more hands though - like a lot more than just broadways and pairs.

I think you are as you state yourself way, WAY to tight at the late stages. You have to remember, this is where all the profits come from in SnG's and this is where the worse players will make more mistakes. You shoving way to tight is a huge mistake and people are just shoving on you constantly because they have so much FE vs you they can probably shove 72o profitably vs you BVB and expect you to fold a massive percentage because you're only calling top 10% of hands even when on a short stack when in fact you should be calling much, much wider.



I really recommend you post some hands of example in the thread of late stages where you're folding to much or not shoving wide enough.
 
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hffjd2000

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If it happens time and time again, then change things.
Change the stake, change the number of player tourney, change the variant, etc.
Observe and stick to the game you are winning at.
Goodluck.
 
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rene92

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Read Pokerbooks...Try to learn "all" or most of the best strategies...the best strategy is to dont have on...Just know them and and play unpredictable
 
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