small sets vs top pair, top kicker

supernuts25

supernuts25

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hi all
Been having a hard time with a situation that keeps coming up during my tourney play, so any advise would be muchly appreciated.

so were about 13 players left in a micro 2.20 rebuy tourney, 122 players total. i had 40k chips he had 10k chips.

so i had AK and i 3 bet it, he had 44 and called, so i flopped top pair and he shoved i called, i lost

now it happened again same player i 3 bet kj and he called 33 and flopped set i flopped top pair, and turned my j and that's when i went all in. i lost that one too

i was in positon both times, and i was just moved to the table so really didn't have any info on him , i found out after ward he wasn't really that strong of a player,

so can u fold in these situations i wasn't really expecting such a small pair calling when i 3 to 4 bet, , and these spots seem to cost me quite a bit. so any advise on these situations would be great , i finished 10th on this tourney and that was part of the reason why
 
bstyles85

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Your basic flaw is two-fold:

  • You have a tendency to over-value TPTK hands. They aren't worth all the money as often as you seem to think.
  • You aren't listening when the opponent tells you they have a lock. They are telling you this when they start shoveling money in the pot.

    You're are making the fundamental mistake of playing your cards instead of your opponent. TPTK is a fine hand for modest pots in most situations. Against a loose opp, it can stand a raise. Against a solid player it should hit the muck rather quickly.You need to pay attention to how your opponents play. If they tend to be cautious about putting money in the pot, then you should tend to respect their play when they raise in order to save money.
 
elizeuof

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It is difficult to read enough information to be able to identify that the villain has a set. The most effective callsign is when the villain is being very aggressive. However, this same aggressiveness can be verified in cases of over pair, high pair, two pair, straight, flush, or some draws.


Playing poker is to constantly study players and learn to predict certain patterns, you need to read everyone at the table, even when you are not in the hand, think of the following, if you have a strong hand and some villain makes a strange move the best option is to be cautious.


I did a quick search, despite some divergences, I managed to reach the conclusion that we will start with a pair usually 10% of the time, and a pair will turn one set is another 10%. So we see that playing pairs where we do not have to invest a lot of chips can be a great strategy, but I've come across times when I did it and the villain got a bigger set.


I think the ideal is to avoid any situation that puts your entire stack at risk, try to control and raise your stack gradually, and when you are in a more complicated situation where you can not escape these situations, you will have enough chips in case you lose sometimes to these you can survive the tournament with whatever you have left over.
 
F

freestocks

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I think I would have done the same thing. It is hard to read a set like that, especially twice.
 
mitchy boi

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Your basic flaw is two-fold:

  • You have a tendency to over-value TPTK hands. They aren't worth all the money as often as you seem to think.
  • You aren't listening when the opponent tells you they have a lock. They are telling you this when they start shoveling money in the pot.

    You're are making the fundamental mistake of playing your cards instead of your opponent. TPTK is a fine hand for modest pots in most situations. Against a loose opp, it can stand a raise. Against a solid player it should hit the muck rather quickly.You need to pay attention to how your opponents play. If they tend to be cautious about putting money in the pot, then you should tend to respect their play when they raise in order to save money.



This is gold advice your stuck in the "2003" poker mindset TPTK is always good tart watching more streamers on youtube/twitch and see what they laydown it really will open your eyes to well and next level they play
 
ZenGreen

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Also pay attention to the boards themselves. like if its k37r board and money starts flying in hot and heavy. You have TPTK and yet money is hitting the pot hard. You have to start asking yourself, what hands are continuing on boards. Im not saying getting floated for a street but, if money starts flying in hard on ultra dry boards, I wouldnt be digging TP too much anymore

Boards with more draws, you can add more range to your villan and re-evaluate. But even Sets arent happy on JQT boards
 
Nr98

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Your basic flaw is two-fold:

  • You have a tendency to over-value TPTK hands. They aren't worth all the money as often as you seem to think.
  • You aren't listening when the opponent tells you they have a lock. They are telling you this when they start shoveling money in the pot.

    You're are making the fundamental mistake of playing your cards instead of your opponent. TPTK is a fine hand for modest pots in most situations. Against a loose opp, it can stand a raise. Against a solid player it should hit the muck rather quickly.You need to pay attention to how your opponents play. If they tend to be cautious about putting money in the pot, then you should tend to respect their play when they raise in order to save money.
That's way too simple. We need to take further things into consideration, such as blind levels (so relative stack size), distance from the bubble or payout jumps. What are the villain's tendencies? There simply isn't enough information to make a decision like this.

At the later stages it really depends on the stack sizes (and ICM but let's save that for later). If your stack is shallow, you simply can't get away from top pair top kicker. However if you haven't got too much of your stack invested you might be able to get away from it (to answer the question if you should, we need more info first).

Tl dr: Yes he might have these tendencies, but we can't tell just yet. It might be perfectly fine to commit your stack there, but it also might not. We need more info.

And to OP, next time when asking a question about a hand try to post a bit more info. Such as which position you're in. What are the blind levels? Are we in the money or on the bubble? All these things matter, so we can give the best advice.
But in general, yes sometimes you have to lay down top pair top kicker, but be wary. You can also become too weak/passive. At times you have to commit, depending on the pot to stack ratio and other factors. Of course you lose sometimes, but that's variance.

Hope this helps a bit, gl mate :D
 
Nr98

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It is difficult to read enough information to be able to identify that the villain has a set. The most effective callsign is when the villain is being very aggressive. However, this same aggressiveness can be verified in cases of over pair, high pair, two pair, straight, flush, or some draws.


Playing poker is to constantly study players and learn to predict certain patterns, you need to read everyone at the table, even when you are not in the hand, think of the following, if you have a strong hand and some villain makes a strange move the best option is to be cautious.


I did a quick search, despite some divergences, I managed to reach the conclusion that we will start with a pair usually 10% of the time, and a pair will turn one set is another 10%. So we see that playing pairs where we do not have to invest a lot of chips can be a great strategy, but I've come across times when I did it and the villain got a bigger set.


I think the ideal is to avoid any situation that puts your entire stack at risk, try to control and raise your stack gradually, and when you are in a more complicated situation where you can not escape these situations, you will have enough chips in case you lose sometimes to these you can survive the tournament with whatever you have left over.

I prefer to see it this way. If you're never risking your stack, you're way less likely to take down the tournament. Passive play won't get you that far, it will only lead to you getting blinded out. Having said that tho, I do agree that sometimes it's best to let it go. But when the right spot comes around you have to take your chances. It's the only way you can take down a MTT.
 
supernuts25

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thanks guys for all your input, I'm not saying i never get away from sets, but was more wondering on small sets, as i have a hard time thinking they called my pre raise with it . and when the flop comes up i think I'm safe, and i had no info on him i was just moved to the table,

just was wondering specifically on a raised pre flop and small pairs making sets,
 
DougPkrMonsta

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It'd be easier to say for sure if you included what the blind levels were at for these hands.

When you flop top pair after 3-betting you're going to lose some chips if your opponent has flopped a set. Definitely bad luck to have this happen back to back but that's poker!


Luckily for us all, it shouldn't come up too often (holding a pocket pair you will flop a set about 12% of the time, or about 1 time in 8). For this reason set-mining is 3-bet pots is generally not a great strategy late in a tournament (when stacks are shorter).


You need implied odds with small pairs since you will be left with only a small pair a lot of the time and have to be compensated well when you do connect with a set.


Better luck to you! :D
 
J

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TOTALLY AGREE

Your basic flaw is two-fold:

  • You have a tendency to over-value TPTK hands. They aren't worth all the money as often as you seem to think.
  • You aren't listening when the opponent tells you they have a lock. They are telling you this when they start shoveling money in the pot.

    You're are making the fundamental mistake of playing your cards instead of your opponent. TPTK is a fine hand for modest pots in most situations. Against a loose opp, it can stand a raise. Against a solid player it should hit the muck rather quickly.You need to pay attention to how your opponents play. If they tend to be cautious about putting money in the pot, then you should tend to respect their play when they raise in order to save money.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE, THIS IS A BAD HABIT THAT TONS OF PLAYERS HAVE. ITS ALL ABOUT MAKING A GOOD READ AND GETTING OUT WHEN YOURE BEAT. LATE IN A TOURNEY IS HARDER THOUGH BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE STEAL AND MORE PEOPLE BECOME BULLIES LOL :confused::confused:
 
J

jharness91

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This is gold advice your stuck in the "2003" poker mindset TPTK is always good tart watching more streamers on youtube/twitch and see what they laydown it really will open your eyes to well and next level they play

THIS IS A NEW AGE OF POKER WHERE AN 83 OFF CAN BE AS GOOD AS ROCKETS DEPENDING ON THE PLAYER AND SKILLSET!!!
 
J

jharness91

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This is gold advice your stuck in the "2003" poker mindset TPTK is always good tart watching more streamers on youtube/twitch and see what they laydown it really will open your eyes to well and next level they play

THIS IS A NEW AGE OF POKER WHERE AN 83 OFF CAN BE AS GOOD AS ROCKETS DEPENDING ON THE PLAYER AND SKILLSET!!! PRACTICE FOR FREE ON wsop App AND YOU WILL LEARN THE NEW AGE OF POKER LOL
 
J

jharness91

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2ND TIME AROUND

This is gold advice your stuck in the "2003" poker mindset TPTK is always good tart watching more streamers on youtube/twitch and see what they laydown it really will open your eyes to well and next level they play

I think I would have done the same thing. It is hard to read a set like that, especially twice.
I WOULD BE MORE CAUTIOUS THE SECOND TIME AROUND... (LEARN FROM YOUR PREVIOUS MISREAD AND KNOW YOUR OPPONENT IS ON A HOT STREAK)
 
jmateuspoker

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coin flips

In the first case it was a classic coin flip nothing wrong

Already in the second situation you invested in your top pair but KJ is a dominated hand therefore you need to understand that the opponent that gives a 3x can have AJ or QQ or KK or AA or any for that crack in the Board might there not all it took in

:jd4:mateuspoker
 
J

jharness91

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EXACTLY!!

Also pay attention to the boards themselves. like if its k37r board and money starts flying in hot and heavy. You have TPTK and yet money is hitting the pot hard. You have to start asking yourself, what hands are continuing on boards. Im not saying getting floated for a street but, if money starts flying in hard on ultra dry boards, I wouldnt be digging TP too much anymore

Boards with more draws, you can add more range to your villan and re-evaluate. But even Sets arent happy on JQT boards

EXACTLY! DRY BOARDS HEAVILY BET OR RAISED 9/10 TIMES TPTK IS NO LONGER GOOD.. SOMEONE FLOPPED A SET OR LUCKY 2 PAIR EITHER WAY TPTK IS HURTING AT THE MOMENT
 
J

jharness91

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BACK 2 BACK

Also pay attention to the boards themselves. like if its k37r board and money starts flying in hot and heavy. You have TPTK and yet money is hitting the pot hard. You have to start asking yourself, what hands are continuing on boards. Im not saying getting floated for a street but, if money starts flying in hard on ultra dry boards, I wouldnt be digging TP too much anymore

Boards with more draws, you can add more range to your villan and re-evaluate. But even Sets arent happy on JQT boards

It'd be easier to say for sure if you included what the blind levels were at for these hands.

When you flop top pair after 3-betting you're going to lose some chips if your opponent has flopped a set. Definitely bad luck to have this happen back to back but that's poker!


Luckily for us all, it shouldn't come up too often (holding a pocket pair you will flop a set about 12% of the time, or about 1 time in 8). For this reason set-mining is 3-bet pots is generally not a great strategy late in a tournament (when stacks are shorter).


You need implied odds with small pairs since you will be left with only a small pair a lot of the time and have to be compensated well when you do connect with a set.


Better luck to you! :D
B2B IS RARE AND JUST PURE UNLUCKY FOR THE LOSER OF THE POT BUT LIKE YOU SAID THATS POKER SETS DESERVE TO GET PAID OFF MOST THE TIME
 
I

ivandrago

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You got to have balls sometimes to call.
 
W

WarEagle1266

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I think the tough part is that he called a 3-bet with a small stack late in the tourney. I assume he had invested at least 20% of his stack preflop. I would put him on AJ, AQ, or a pocket pair around TT or JJ. I wouldn't have put him on a low pocket pair for sure. I guess the only real advice here is to try to control the pot size more and to be more observant about your opponent's calling ranges (assuming he's been at your table a while).
 
Thefish87

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I think in general we should be asking our selves in situations like this h ow many time can he flop a set I it's a hard read but in general I think your play is right cause hes not always having sets I think you need to feel out your pre flop sense it will give you a better aspect of what your opponent can have...check is a great tool sometimes and losing the minimal in large pots with tptk...so imo I think you made the right playing cause I think 6 out 10 times your tptk is good but I could be wrong I seem to avoid these sitituation with tptk just due to my pre flop sense and learning to small ball with these types of hands to avoid sets and flushes so keep working at your pre flop abilities as it will lead to you your reads on flop for betting patterns gl
 
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