Small Ball Poker.

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manliquid

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I'm a new student of the game and have been doing my studying and read about "small ball" poker. How effective is this technique and does anyone use it? I have a general over all idea of how it works, but don't know if it's a winning strategy. Right now I just play "poker by the numbers", so I'm looking for some techiques to add variance to my game.
 
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mapjay

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Do I even want to know what you mean by manliquid?? lol what exactly is small ball poker? Is it just general small pot poker?
 
tomh7795

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Yes it is small pot poker. Try looking it up on the net. I'm sure you will find something. If your playing micro stakes probably best to play more abc poker
 
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Grinder101

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Small ball poker had it's day back with the old school pros, it's about being less agressive preflop. I think the theory of small ball poker is a little outdated, but of course you can be a winning player playing that style.

Personally I prefer big ball poker, but that's another matter :p
 
dwolfg

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The idea behind small ball poker isn't to be less aggressive. The idea is to make your opponent make many more smaller decisions, rather than a few big decisions, in an attempt to force more mistakes throughout a session or tourney that hopefully add up to more than a few big mistakes.
 
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WiZZiM

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Small ball poker had it's day back with the old school pros, it's about being less agressive preflop. I think the theory of small ball poker is a little outdated, but of course you can be a winning player playing that style.

Personally I prefer big ball poker, but that's another matter :p

huh? less aggressive preflop? its about playing more hands preflop, but raising less... and small ball for tournaments is utilized in differing styles today by guys like gus hansen, phil ivey, daniel negreanu, phill hellmuth, etc..

its about rasings lots of hands preflop, and making sound poker decisions postflop... its a more difficult way to play as you get yourself in trickier decisions, which, is why its best as a novice to stick to big bet poker...

and because were in so many pots, making little bets and raising.. bad players will assume we have nothing on most flop and try to play back at us, or get involved in a big pot when we have the nuts or close too it..

i think negreanu said its like boxing.. putting in lots of small little jabs whilst waiting for the knockout blow..
 
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mapjay

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huh? less aggressive preflop? its about playing more hands preflop, but raising less... and small ball for tournaments is utilized in differing styles today by guys like gus hansen, phil ivey, daniel negreanu, phill hellmuth, etc..

its about rasings lots of hands preflop, and making sound poker decisions postflop... its a more difficult way to play as you get yourself in trickier decisions, which, is why its best as a novice to stick to big bet poker...

and because were in so many pots, making little bets and raising.. bad players will assume we have nothing on most flop and try to play back at us, or get involved in a big pot when we have the nuts or close too it..

i think negreanu said its like boxing.. putting in lots of small little jabs whilst waiting for the knockout blow..

I agree with you on that one! Negreanu may just be the best example of that or I may be just a little biased since he is Canadain!! :). He likes to see a lot flops; his pre flop raises are not very big and he waits for players to make mistakes. I see way too many players playing big ball poker with AQ or AJ or KQ hands like that. Every single time I get dealt AK I tell myself that I am not willing too loose a lot of chips over this hand. So I enjoy small ball poker for the most part. But like everything there is a time and place and you have to mix things up from time to time
 
Pokerstudent

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The one thing to remember with small ball poker is that you should be deep-stacked. If your not, you are giving up too much of your stack with a small possibility of being the winner in the pot because of your preflop holdings.
 
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The Spillage

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I think it can be a difficult thing to pull of in your average 9-man sit-n-go as stack aren't really deep enough to get involved in lots of pots. It's something I try and play (usually badly!) when I occasionally sit down to deep stack MTTs.
 
okeedokalee

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There are Daniel Negreanu, videos on You Tube explaining small ball, technique sounds easy, in reality it is tough.
Stick to TAG play as a beginner, Dan Harrington's books are good to follow when starting out
 
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Skaplun

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small ball poker...
you are starting your studies in the wrong place
check ABC poker in google, start from there.
Learn theory and think about the game in general.
dont start with 1 specific part but first understand what this game means, the various parts of the game and THEN start studying them.
 
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engman

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Ya, it works because it's not as risky. Maybe try getting a Daniel Negreanu book to help you out.
 
Poker Orifice

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Small ball poker had it's day back with the old school pros, it's about being less agressive preflop. I think the theory of small ball poker is a little outdated, but of course you can be a winning player playing that style.

Personally I prefer big ball poker, but that's another matter :p

I think you're way off here. Try watching many of the pros in bigger buyin deepstacked online tournaments (or live). Small ball is not something from the past (you'll notice that the stnd. preflop raise is ~2.2x in Later Levels & ~2.4-2.5x in mid-levels).
Negreanu has a fairly large section of his most recent book devoted to small ball.

It can be very effective vs. right opponents but of course 'it depends' on many variables.... ie. small ball won't be effective in 1500chip online donkaments, or the 3,000chip doublestack once the antes kick in.

My recommendation would be to get a firm grasp on game theory (for MTT play) and then gradually try different stuff, figuring out what suits your own personal preferences & style of play.
 
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As a 'student of the game' small ball is worth studying - but as a previous post says it is tough to play. You need good post flop play and very good discipline to not get overexcited by your bottom two pair.

By placing lots of smaller bets you can create the impression of being a maniac without actually risking too much. in essence you are playing a long game - your small PF raises and small con bets will win some and lose some, but what you are really after is trapping a player who has decent hole cards but misses their flop. For example, dealt J9 on the button you raise for the umpteenth time and get a call from BB with AT. The flop comes 78T and when the BB check raises you nail them. The discipline and reading skills come from knowing what to do when the check raise comes to a JTT flop. The stategy generally works best against a table of ABC players (but not idiots) who are just waiting for a decent hand to raise up - when you meet resistance without the nuts you can get out without having risked too much.

Even if you don't play small ball seriously it is worth getting to grips with it (give it a go in a less serious game) and understanding it so at least you can recognise it when someone else is small balling you.
 
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small ball poker is keeping the pot small when the pot needs to be small,for example: if you have top pair top kicker, in reality you dont have that big of a hnad to be pushing allin with, keep the pot small but still try to get your chips value out of your hand. if you have the nuts try to get the chip value you deserve for that hand, that is small ball poker.
 
rounder22

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I got the free trial from poker vt quite a while ago and watched all of daniels videos it was very helpful and I learned watching Paul Wasicka play heads up I like how he plays the game as well.
 
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small ball poker...
you are starting your studies in the wrong place
check ABC poker in google, start from there.
Learn theory and think about the game in general.
dont start with 1 specific part but first understand what this game means, the various parts of the game and THEN start studying them.




^^^ +1
:icon_thum
 
8Michael3

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In the videos section there is a Negreanu video, 3 parts I think, covering small ball poker.

Watch some of the bigger online mtts as the antes kick in and you will see small ball in action. Smaller raises with speculative hands trying to pick up the blinds cheaply, but remember that the hands have some potential just in case the blinds fight back, theyre not raising with total trash (some do).

I experiment with both small ball and bigger raises depending on who is in the blinds and with what kind of stack size compared to the blinds and antes. /to tight players small ball is perfect. Against loose aggressive players I use both depending on my hand - I prefer the bigger raises to put maximum pressure on them if my hand is legit, and small ball because I want to keep the put small and use my postion and hand reading to take the pot post flop.

GL
 
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WiZZiM

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In the videos section there is a Negreanu video, 3 parts I think, covering small ball poker.


GL

This video you describe, in no way, 'covers' small ball poker, there is a lot more too it than just raising smaller and betting lots of flops. I repeat, a LOT more to it.
 
okeedokalee

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This video you describe, in no way, 'covers' small ball poker, there is a lot more too it than just raising smaller and betting lots of flops. I repeat, a LOT more to it

Agree WiZZiM tried this at micro limits, bank went down, down down :vollkomme
 
8Michael3

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This video you describe, in no way, 'covers' small ball poker, there is a lot more too it than just raising smaller and betting lots of flops. I repeat, a LOT more to it.

Agreed. Im also quite interested in the full spectrum of small ball poker, so can you please elaborate. Appreciate it. Thanks.
 
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WiZZiM

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This video you describe, in no way, 'covers' small ball poker, there is a lot more too it than just raising smaller and betting lots of flops. I repeat, a LOT more to it

Agree WiZZiM tried this at micro limits, bank went down, down down :vollkomme

Usually in these micro's your only ever deep enough to use small ball effectively in the first few levels.
Agreed. Im also quite interested in the full spectrum of small ball poker, so can you please elaborate. Appreciate it. Thanks.
Ill try, not promising anything, besides im probably not the best person to talk about it..
 
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