Small Ball / Bubble

As a novice in tournaments (especially rebuys) I find the small ball approach Negreanu advocates to be difficult as you get later on a tourney (post bubble lets say). Seems like everybody just shoves at that point but of course I am playing mostly $5 and under tourneys.

The strategy I tend to employ more closely resembles in certain respects the "Kill Phil" theory of avoiding difficult post-flop decisions, -- Quote from book-- thereby giving novice players a means "to neutralize the edge enjoyed by more experienced opponents."

Does anybody who uses small ball have starting hand guidelines and advice about bet-sizing when raising before the flop post bubble (lets just assume your stack is in the middle of the remaining players and your table is generally passive but the chip leader is to your left). Also assume that you have about 25x the BB as a starting stack and your goal is not to move up in the $ but to win the whole thing?

If your goal is to win the tournament you´d want to avoid any coinflip situation so therefor I usually apply the push/fold strategy at this stage of a tournament instead of smallballing, which is a great strategy in low-limit MTT´s, but when the bigger money is approaching the nerves of many players fail them and therefor you should force them to call/fold-spots with marginal hands rather than fold/call/I-might-make him-fold-with-my-A2-if-i-go-allin spots.

To describe more clearly what I mean let´s take the following example:

Hand: 7-7
Seat: Cut-Off
Situation: Folded to you

Now with this hand at an early stage I would make it 3-4 BB´s and same goes for if I make it deep like final 3-5% of total players remaining, BUT if I have just made the money and people are playing like maniacs (as they usually do after the bubble burst) treating K-T as bullets then I would push in this spot rather than raising 3-4 BB´s just to face an allin from A-X.

Hands I never raise in these situations are hands like KQ KJ QJ etc as if the any of the blinds or the button holds a raggy ace they will probably push and you dont wanna call down an all-in bet with just K high.

Too make a long answer short at this stage dont raise anything that doesn´t has A-3 dominated and when you play it make sure that your opponent realize he cant push you out of the hand.

Great topic. If you are sure that you will only accept 1st place as success, then I guess I can understand what you are saying. If not, then you can really pick up a lot of places by hanging back until you have a premium hand. Especially right after the bubble bursts. The next couple of rounds will clean out quite a few players. I would rather advocate this approach unless you are one of the big stacks. Then you can devour some of the small stack maniacs while you are waiting for hands to challenge the other big boys.

Small ball early

small ball early in the Tourney is not bad when the blinds are small. But when the Antes kick in you must switch to Long Ball or you will get crushed...

DonkeySmash

A lot of people don't understand the conditions necessary to use the small ball strategy as Negreanu teaches it. Negreanu has admitted on his blog that he doesn't play online MTTs very often because he doesn't like the stucture. He primarily plays the big buy in deep stack tournaments where you can make moves like those in the small ball playbook.

I have tried to adapt his small ball strategy to online MTTs a bit. Instead of raising 3-4x the BB with a hand like 89s, i just min raise if its folded to me in late position and see if i get a caller and flop a good draw or even a monster, and play from there.

I have used this adapted strategy in the small buy in (<$10) tournaments on full tilt where you start with 1500 in chips and have consistently had about 3500-4000 chips by the end of the first break if I am not busted already (which doesn't happen very often )

I'll admit, i've always been to nervous to try a small ball approach, but maybe I'll see what I can do next time i get high in a mtt... However, I really like the concept of the strategy, being able to slowly put yourself out as a reckless post bubble donk, then pouncing when you hit dimes or cowboys or something. However, I always get nervous and just want to cash as high as I can, so I am generally one of the players sitting back and watchin the all-ins drop.

I can definitely agree on the small ball approach early on in a tourney for the simple fact that in the early stages there's quite a bit of reckless play and not having a large amount of chips committed to the pot makes it that much easier to get away from a hand. In the latter stages though when the blinds and antes get large, it's better to win by everyone folding rather than betting small and letting people see the flop. Usually when the antes kick in if you just min raise preflop you are giving the BB proper odds to call with any two. Another thing to consider about the small ball approach is that you want to see a lot of flops. this could hurt you later on when the blinds get large for blind steal attempts. When I'm playing a MTT I'll usually try and collect as much of the dead money's chips as possible but still try and keep a rock image so in later stages when the blinds become large and worth stealing, I'll have a more credible table image to be able to do so.

cl0nedmarksman said:

Also assume that you have about 25x the BB as a starting stack and your goal is not to move up in the $ but to win the whole thing?

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Are you saying you have a 25BB stack at the time you made the money (which *could* be a lot, or not...), or at the beginning of the tourney (which would be a rather small starting stack)? In any case, "25BB" can be a bit misleading as it doesn't represent the true cost of playing a round (also known as "M"). For example: if you have 25K and the blinds are 500/1000, you have an M of about 17, which is a good number that gives you a nearly-full range of "poker moves"; however, let's say there's also a 200 ante and you're 9-handed, well, your M is now only about 7.5, and you should be in shove-or-fold mode. Unfortunately, the latter situation is more likely to be the case in most small/medium buy-in MTTs, as their blind structures are plain and simply designed to move things along, and that's often the reason why they turn into "shove-fests" . . . justifyably so, because often EVERYONE at the table may suddenly find themselves with an M of <10.

Basically, imo, it all comes down is stack sizes . . . if you have an M of 10 or less, min-raising should be out of the question (unless maybe you're planning on inducing a raise and re-shoving), and any hand you play should be good enough to go AIPF; and with an M of 5 or less, your only options should be to shove or fold, anyway. BUT, if you should be lucky enough to get to the money or the FT with a large stack (M=20+), "small-ball" moves can still be very effective, as long as you're using position and are aware of the other players' stack sizes and their playing styles. I.e.: if you min-raise into 3 short-stacks that will certainly either shove or fold, you might as well just raise enough to put them all in - if that's what you're trying to do - rather than min-raise and give them a chance to re-raise you . . . but if you have other large stacks behind you, a min-raise may be a better option to build up a pot and actually get some post-flop play. Note: Once again, antes can make a big difference in the effect of a min-raise, as anyone behind you will have drastically different odds to call depending on whether or not there are antes, and on how large they are compared to the blinds.

I have found the small ball approach to only work for me in the beginning of tournaments, but as I get later on in the tournament I found myself as one of the lowest chip stacks, and then it is just completely not useful for me.

There are no starting hands requirements for small ball. I don't like using small ball because you get into really difficult decisions FREQENTLY. Hitting 2nd, 3rd pair on a regular basis then trying to figure out if the person who just made a pot size bet actually has something.

In a tournament I stick to long ball because as many have stated, towards the middle late it becomes a shoving match. If you put in a small raise, someone is going to shove.....now what? This is common.

In cash, that's a different story. I play every hand. 7 out of 10 is playing solid. Deep stacked with no escalating blinds.....yeah I'll play the 3-7 suited and 10-8's and the 3-5's any face card, etc.

Does anyone know who plays small ball in MTT's? I would like to rail that person through a tournament and see how it's done.

This really depends. Like you said with the Kill Phil strategy, it is used by novices. It's fine if you're willing to let luck guide you, but if you feel you're an experienced player, you don't need to do this. The point of the Kill Phil strategy is that it shields weakness post flop. If you don't want to use this it's pretty simple: become a better post flop player.

Now, as to how to play small ball later on: Be observant of the table. Don't try a 2.5 BB raise with 87s into blinds that have 10 BBs left. Use raises like that if the blinds are deep stacked or very passive. Also, don't be afraid to stray from strategy a little bit. Every successful pro, regardless of strategy, switches gears at some point over the course of a long tournament. Steal every now and then with a slightly bigger raise, slow play occasionally. You need to keep your opponents on their toes regardless of where you are in the tournament.

Small Ball... & Bubble...

Although I am new to cash poker I have learned a lot from free play. I have learned that no monetary value to bets tends to people playing rags ( weak or hands not worthy of betting on. ) And low and behold some one always pulls off the miraculous hand. This also applies to some freerolls. I would call this amateur hour but I see it more and more in cash games as I play farther I hold on to my relevant or strong starter hands and when it comes show down time I see the rags fall out of the wood work... So Im I missing some thing here or doing the right thing using strategy??? I know that mathamatics are relevant to poker but these Left Field Hands are winning nearly as frequently as any other.... Oh yeah I have for the most part been using small ball strategy...


Regards
Philo Betto420
aka
Chan Sparks

LizzyJ said:

In cash, that's a different story. I play every hand. 7 out of 10 is playing solid. Deep stacked with no escalating blinds.....yeah I'll play the 3-7 suited and 10-8's and the 3-5's any face card, etc.

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LOL, can I PLEASE play at your cash game tables with you, then?!! I can't possibly imagine how you can be profitable playing 70% of your hands, but if you are, more power to you, I guess. . . . (I still want you at my table, though!)

LizzyJ said:

Does anyone know who plays small ball in MTT's? I would like to rail that person through a tournament and see how it's done.

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As to playing "small ball" in MTTs: I haven't read Negreanu's book yet, so I don't know his exact method, but from what I understand the idea is to keep pots small and see lots of flops, which allows you to get away cheap when you're beat (even with big starting cards), yet ideally maximize your winnings and/or outplay opponents when you're strong. In that sense, I think early on when stacks are deep it's actually very similar to cash games with buy-ins of 100-200BB. In the mid-late stages of MTTs it just really depends on the overall structure (antes, etc.), your own stack size (M), and your relative stack size (Q) especially compared to the rest of your table, but also the overall field; obviously, if everyone has Ms of 5-10, you can usually forget about post-flop play, but if the avg M is in the 15-20 range and you have a Q of at least 1, you should be able to still use small-ball to your advantage in the right spots. Of course, in cash games as in tourneys, you never want to lock yourself into just one style of playing, as that will not only limit your game, but also make it a lot easier for your opponents to figure you out. . . .

I think I usually follow the small-ball strategy in MTTs somewhat successfully (at least as long as I have chips), so you're welcome to rail me anytime.

Philo Betto420 said:

Although I am new to cash poker I have learned a lot from free play.

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While I wouldn't say that free play is completely useless as a learning tool, I'd have to caution you to try and take away anything but the most rudimentary poker concepts from it. Imho, free play is good to learn the flow and structure of the game (how and when to act, how much time to take, how quickly blinds move up, etc.), but anything else is useless as you're transitioning to real-money play, precisely because -- as you mentioned -- there are no monetary consequences to being stupid and/or reckless in free play.

I just started using smallball and I like it. I think the key or keys are stacks/blinds, knowing your table and position.
1) Yes if your stack is really low you can't play it too well, I'll play it up to ten BB's. But I do find it tough to play in turbos I find it better to play tight early and then smallball if you are lucky enough to have a stack.
2) It's all about fishing and playing your great hands the same as your small pairs and suited connectors. The other players have to be paying attention to the hands you showdown for this to work. And you need to really sit back and watch how they play before you jump in with 76o or 33.
3) And as always having position is ALWAYS the best.