Shoving any 2 cards when short stacked utg with lets say 3 big blinds...

So lets say your playing a tourny blinds are 300/600 you have 1800 left (Just playing ftw) if your utg vs 9 opponents ( therefore in the big blind next hand and committed) if you have 23 off is it the right play to shove? its just your more likely to pick up a better hand if you wait. Please explain

Well, you might as well. But you shouldn't ever be in that position. You should be shoving long before you ever let yourself get to that point. Unless, of course, you just lost an all-in against a smaller stack.

I would not be waiting that long when you are 3X BB to shove all in....you will have multiple callers and less chance to win the pot....the other players will call and check it to the river if they are smart. I would not put myself in this situation...at 6BB you will have enough fold equity to steal blinds with ATC and if you get called then hope you have two free cards to hit with.
But since you asked this question, I would just wait till the BB , someone will raise big to steal your blind , and then you can shove with any two cards and hope for HU only. even if you pick up 2 3 again its better against one then several callers.

Izaak said:

So lets say your playing a tourny blinds are 300/600 you have 1800 left (Just playing ftw) if your utg vs 9 opponents ( therefore in the big blind next hand and committed) if you have 23 off is it the right play to shove? its just your more likely to pick up a better hand if you wait. Please explain

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As mentioned above, you should have been pushing alot earlier.
Knowing when to push can be done using this formula: x/y="M".
Where "x" = your chip stack and "y" = blinds plus antes.
So you should be pushing any 2 with an "M" value of 5 or less.

For example: Blinds are 300/600, your stack is 4500 so that gives you an "M" of 5 (4500/900=5).
For more detailed info, you'll have to read HoH(Harrington on Hold'em)

As for your original question as to waiting for a better hand, in your example it really doesn't matter what cards you push because the longer you wait, the shorter your stack will get and the easier it will make it for others at the table to call with any 2 cards.

It's just a matter of fold equity, you have none and a hand which has pretty much no showdown value(you will win 25-30% yeah). And your much more likely to get a better hand in the blinds next hand.

So the question is, are you more or less likely to get it heads up in the BB? Limping tables your likely not to get it heads up, tighter tables, or ones with regs your probably better off folding.

Yeh i agree with waiting for the big blind. Your much more likely to get heads up and have a better chance. By shoving ATC your giving up as you will likely be a huge underdog in a multiway pot. If you can get to HU in the BB you will be much better off

yeah you are going to get multiple callers checking it down if you shove there, unless it is bubble play

better to wait to see your BB cards if your hand is that bad ... maybe you'd get lucky and wake up with a decent hand

and, of course, as others have said ... don't get to 3X ... i would always shove around the 10X mark with anything playable, but i have found that it is sometimes wiser to be willing to dip even as low as 5X depending on the structure of the tourney and, naturally, bubble play ... but the only way you should get 3X is if you just lost a all-in vs. a shorter stack

Easy.

If you have little fold equity, then your better off calling off in the BB the next hand if you have 23o (remember you get more walks when your stack is like 4xbb because lp raisers cannot steal) , so there generally is a better chance of a walk.

What everyone else said with the caveat that if its in a satty you could fold and if it isnt get in in when there is a multiway pot with trash before then, give yourself a fighting chance at a triple up or more. (satty if next guy goes out)

Fold and just go with whatever you get next.

Izaak said:

So lets say your playing a tourny blinds are 300/600 you have 1800 left (Just playing ftw) if your utg vs 9 opponents ( therefore in the big blind next hand and committed) if you have 23 off is it the right play to shove? its just your more likely to pick up a better hand if you wait. Please explain

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Well, your not likely to pick up a worse hand. At this point you have absolutely zero fold equity so open shoving buys you nothing. But you're right, you should be looking for a chance to get it all in with just about any two cards. I say just about because the hand you described is so weak you are probably better off seeing what you get dealt next even if it does mean posting the BB. Remember, the blinds may be forced but their still yours. Also, if you wait for the blinds you may find yourself in a much more favorable position if someone else shoves or raises and it folds around to you. At least in this case you're only up against one opponent and 2 live cards may be all you need to double up. After that you'll still be in shove mode but you'll have some time to be at least a little more selective. On the button open shove any two if the blinds are short to medium stacked. After that you're looking for any two high cards, any ace, any pair obviously, also two connected or gapped hands, in short, anything that can improve your chances when you go to showdown which you almost certainly will.

shinedown.45 said:

As mentioned above, you should have been pushing alot earlier.
Knowing when to push can be done using this formula: x/y="M".
Where "x" = your chip stack and "y" = blinds plus antes.
So you should be pushing any 2 with an "M" value of 5 or less.

For example: Blinds are 300/600, your stack is 4500 so that gives you an "M" of 5 (4500/900=5).
For more detailed info, you'll have to read HoH(Harrington on Hold'em)

As for your original question as to waiting for a better hand, in your example it really doesn't matter what cards you push because the longer you wait, the shorter your stack will get and the easier it will make it for others at the table to call with any 2 cards.

Click to expand...

Brilliant post, thanks. Have been trying to work this out for a while!

CuttleFish

tenbob said:

Easy.

If you have little fold equity, then your better off calling off in the BB the next hand if you have 23o (remember you get more walks when your stack is like 4xbb because lp raisers cannot steal) , so there generally is a better chance of a walk.

Click to expand...

that one is a bit brilliant-er IMO...

it's a statistical question. If shorter than 5BB and you have any money in (ante or blinds) go all in. Otherwise you can strengthen your cards by waiting.

icm is the biggest factor here, but i think you are better off waiting to call with a bad hand vs just shoving that hand(all else being the same)
and you dont really have fold equity with 3bbs
at least that way you make more money if you get lucky - and its possible to "steal some fold equity" if big stack is raising lots