Shoving 2BB or Less. Tighten the range.

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blix177

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At under 2BB you don't have fold equity build into your shove, at this point it is better to tighten your range and have better raw equity against all hands. Because you will get called down by all hands.

I am looking at the push fold chart and it have UTG shove at 42S+ 53O+, 74O+ 72S+.

This is absolutely incorrect to shove this loosely. You are shoving at 25% equity against most hands. And all hands will call you down in the BB.

Lets look at a typical 9 handed MTT you have 1BB worth of Ante dead money.

You are at 1.5BB you shove as loose as 42+ you only have 38% equity against all hands.

If you play the top half of your range, Q5o+, 98S you have 57% equity.

How much it cost you? Each hand only deducts .1BB so if you can wait 1-2 hands chances you can improve your odds buy a huge amount.

And how much are you losing? Lets compare the pot size if you have 1 caller in the BB.
Your 1.5BB your + 1BB ante, .5BBSB +1.5BB in the BB. You win 4.5BB @ 38% equity = 1.71BB

Now if you wait to improve your hand to Q5s+, and wait 2 hands. You now have 1.3BB + 1BB ante, .5BBSB +1.3BB in the BB. You win, 4.1BB @ 57% equity = 2.337BB

2.337 vs 1.71 that is a 36% increase in equity by tighten your range.

Also not to mention if you are in a big field and you are in the money, playing and using the clock at this stage 2 hands can be the difference between a pay jump.
 
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natelearnspoker

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At under 2BB you don't have fold equity build into your shove, at this point it is better to tighten your range and have better raw equity against all hands. Because you will get called down by all hands.

I am looking at the push fold chart and it have UTG shove at 42S+ 53O+, 74O+ 72S+.

This is absolutely incorrect to shove this loosely. You are shoving at 25% equity against most hands. And all hands will call you down in the BB.

Lets look at a typical 9 handed MTT you have 1BB worth of Ante dead money.

You are at 1.5BB you shove as loose as 42+ you only have 38% equity against all hands.

If you play the top half of your range, Q5o+, 98S you have 57% equity.

How much it cost you? Each hand only deducts .1BB so if you can wait 1-2 hands chances you can improve your odds buy a huge amount.

And how much are you losing? Lets compare the pot size if you have 1 caller in the BB.
Your 1.5BB your + 1BB ante, .5BBSB +1.5BB in the BB. You win 4.5BB @ 38% equity = 1.71BB

Now if you wait to improve your hand to Q5s+, and wait 2 hands. You now have 1.3BB + 1BB ante, .5BBSB +1.3BB in the BB. You win, 4.1BB @ 57% equity = 2.337BB

2.337 vs 1.71 that is a 36% increase in equity by tighten your range.

Also not to mention if you are in a big field and you are in the money, playing and using the clock at this stage 2 hands can be the difference between a pay jump.


Yeah agreed that tightening makes sense with extreme short stacks. I have a bad habit of shoving with garbage as short stack and people just call.
 
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ph_il

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It looks good on paper, but I disagree. With a smaller stack, you want to get it in wider. 38% equity is more than enough as a short stack. Obviously more equity is better, but getting in ~40/60 spots is excellent. I'd say even getting an low as 15/85 spots as a severe short stack (5 BB and less) is fine.

The reason why you want to jam wider is because you want to get your money in sooner than later. The problem with waiting until your stack dwindles down and you have a 57%+ equity hand is you don't give yourself room to build your stack.

Lets say you have 5 BBs and you dwindle down to 1.1 BBs before getting it in. You double up. Congrats you now have a ~3.6 (+ blinds, no ante)BB stack. Where does that put you? Still in the severe short stack category. What exactly does playing tight and waiting for a good hand do? Honestly, very little.

Lets say you're rank 201/225, 75 places paid. What's the difference is you push 5 BBs now and bust, or if you wait to shove with 1.1 BBs? If you bust at 5 BBs or 1.1 BBs, there's no difference. Busting in 201st or 180th is exactly the same. And if you win the 3.6 BB pot, you're still in a worse spot than you started.

But lets say you have 5 BBs and you get it in a 38/62 spot or 1/5x you win. Well, if you double up, you pick up an 11.5 BB pot. And if you bust out, again, busting out in 201st or in 76th is exactly the same. But that 1/5 times you win, you now have a much better stack to play with. Yes, you're still short but you also have more fold equity than you did starting. You can still attack pots getting 40% equity or better pre. You have fold equity to take down pots uncontested, which will be huge boosts to your stack. You don't have that jamming 3.6 BBs. But picking up a 1.5 (no antes) BB pot uncontested with 11.5 BBs is a 13% increase your stack. Because of fold equity, you have better odds to take these 1.5 BB pots uncontested with 11.5 BBs than you do with 3.6 BBs.

Also, let's look at how to get a 11.5 BB stack shoving 1.1 BBs, even with 57% equity. Assuming you get consistent shove hands in a row and get heads up, 1.1 BB shove = 3.6 BBs won, 3.6 BB shove = 8.7 BBs won. You still need to pick up 2.8 BBs. At 57% equity, the odds of you winning 2 heads-up shoves in a row is 32%, which is less equity than shoving 5 BBs to win a 11.5 BB stack. Doesn't make sense to give yourself less equity to for a smaller stack. So, bigger stack, better equity. And we're not even looking at situations where you win 3.6 BBs, fold for a better spot, then jam less BBs. It still puts you in at a short stack with no fold equity. You're just surviving and the object of an MTT isn't to just survive. It's very, very unlikely you're going to win an MTT nursing a 5 BB stack just because you want to last longer. And it's stupid to do so if you're basically not going to cash. In a situation where you're 201/275, 75 paid, it's very unlikely you're cashing and waiting for spots to shove less BBs just prolongs your bust out.

With a short stack, get it in sooner than later and build your short stack stack up as quickly as possible. It's just better for you in the long run. 7 BBs > 14 BBs > 28 BBs is so much better than 2 BBs > 4 BBs > 8 BBs. You can do so much more with a 28 BB stack than an 8 BB stack, so why would you put yourself in a position to basically try and hold onto a short stack? I don't want to shove 3x in a row, win 3x in a row (18.5% chance of success @ 57% equity pre), just to be still < 10 BBs.

Also, and this is just how I like to do things, if you're short stack and so far away from making the FT, get it in those high risk/high reward spots. If I have 10 BBs and theres 3 all-ins before me, guess what? I'm getting it in with ATC. If I bust out, I bust out. Who cares? I'm so far from the FT that busting out now doesn't matter. But if I can get it in and have say 20% equity pre, 1/5x I'm picking up a 45+ BB pot. How much better of a spot does that put me to run deep than folding and giving up an opportunity to win a big pot. The less BBs I have, the sooner I'm looking to get it in. True, I don't last as long as other players, especially getting it in with 20% equity facing a 4 way all-in, but when I do last, it's much deeper and thats where the profit is.

Don't be afraid to get it in short.
 
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blix177

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If you are willing to go 15/85 then it means any 2 cards is an auto shove. AA vs 72S gets you 16% equity.

The thing is I see people surrender and just auto shove when they lost a big hand with 3-4BB left.

Sub 5BB is a great spot to rebuild your stack. You have 2 orbits. You shove you are likely to get called from a wide range. There is 2.5 blinds of dead money. If you can wait for a top 20% range hand you are in a good position to more than double up. Also if you just made it the money, you are probably looking at 3-4 pay jump in a 1000 players tournament.

And even if you lose, heck you down to 5BB who cares. Much less aggro than having 50BB and try to make a move and lose it all in one hand.
 
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300HPGOD

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I like it when people think outside the box a little when it comes to push/fold so kudos to you but I will say I disagree overall. With 2 BB or less your principle is absolutely correct that once you shove you know you are going to get called and why shove with any two cards knowing you are getting it in badly? I get it but the problem is time and the last thing you want to do is get blinded out and not get to make your decision but it comes to the point where you are automatically all in once the cards are dealt. 2 BBs just don't give you any wiggle room so do I agree that 53 off is not a push, yes but I think most things are especially anything suited, 2 or 3 gappers or closer (85,108, etc.), broadways, any ace, any king. That right there is a range you can still win with vs a random call and is wide enough that you should get it in before you get blinded out.
 
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ph_il

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If you are willing to go 15/85 then it means any 2 cards is an auto shove. AA vs 72S gets you 16% equity.
...Yes. The shorter my stack gets, the more open I am to getting it in with ATC.

The thing is I see people surrender and just auto shove when they lost a big hand with 3-4BB left.
...I don't think it's surrendering. If you lose a big pot and you're down to 3-4 BBs, sometimes shoving is your only option. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I drop down to 4 BBs after losing a pot, I need to switch gears and get my money in. I don't think waiting for a good hand at 4 BBs is a solid strategy. Especially if you're going to be folding majority of hands and if antes are in play, it just eats at your stack each time you fold.

Sub 5BB is a great spot to rebuild your stack. You have 2 orbits. You shove you are likely to get called from a wide range. There is 2.5 blinds of dead money. If you can wait for a top 20% range hand you are in a good position to more than double up. Also if you just made it the money, you are probably looking at 3-4 pay jump in a 1000 players tournament.
B stack because I'm constantly folding and waiting for a 20% shove hand.

...The key word is 'IF'. If you're waiting for a top 20% hand, you're still folding 80% of hands dealt, so you're going to be folding more hands than you're playing and at 18 hands dealt before you blind out, you're more likely to blind yourself out before you risk it with anything lower than a 20% hand. And what's the point of that? What's the point of blinding out 1 orbit, just to shove and end up with the same size stack. Potentially smaller as blinds increase.

At 5 BBs, I highly doubt you're making 3-4 pay jumps from that point. It's not impossible but very unlikely. But if your goal in MTTs is just to make the money and you're happy making small pay jumps, then I think folding and waiting for a top 20% hand is perfectly fine. Personally, I don't play to min-cash so taking more risks as a short stack to build up my stack fast is going to get me deeper and that risk:reward is more profitable. And if I get a hand like AA and can get it in pr, I'd rather have a 15+ BB stack than a 2.5 BBs, and I'm not going to be in that spot if I'm not building my stack up.

And even if you lose, heck you down to 5BB who cares. Much less aggro than having 50BB and try to make a move and lose it all in one hand.
...If I have a hand like J2s, I'm willing to get it in pre with 5 BBs but not with 50 BBs. But if I have a hand like KK, I'm looking to get it in whether I have 5 BBs or 50 BBs. If I lose 50 BBs with KK, it doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter if I lose with KK at 5 BBs. The same goes for other hands I'm willing to get in for 50 BBs pre to put myself in a position to win a big pot. If you're looking to win MTTs, that's what you need to be willing to do. You don't win MTTs by folding in big pot situations just because you're afraid of busting out.

So, I agree, you can play much less aggro and not risk 50 BBs if your goal is just to survive as long as you can and see how high up the money ladder you get. It's probably great having a high ITM%, moving up from min cash to maybe make an extra few bucks and, if that's your goal when you play, go for it. It's low risk, low reward.
Above.

Edit: I want to make it clear that I'm saying your way is incorrect and mine is correct. I just disagree with what you're saying. But, if that's how you play and what you're comfortable with, then what I say doesn't matter.
 
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blix177

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I think where you are in the tournament matters a great deal to.

If you early and everyone had 1000bb and you have 5bb it doesn’t matter.

But by the final table, that 5bb is like half the average stack, SPR is less than 1, and payout jump each level. Having a short stack skill is critical.
 
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ph_il

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I think where you are in the tournament matters a great deal to.

If you early and everyone had 1000bb and you have 5bb it doesn’t matter.

But by the final table, that 5bb is like half the average stack, SPR is less than 1, and payout jump each level. Having a short stack skill is critical.
100% agree with this this with final table pay jumps.

Not so much if you're, say, in the late stages with still 60+ players to go before the final table and pay jumps are only a few cents.
 
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80abukaH

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If you tighten up and go down in blinds (5BB to 2) you may end up pushing a better hand, but you will only double up to 4BB and you will have to face another all-in very soon.

And if you put your chips in at 40% twice, it is worse than putting them once only at 20%.

Despite agreeing with the general statement of having no fold equity at all, I do not see how this can be applied.
 
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