Shove to Induce Call 1st Hand of 9 Player SnG

jernest · Mar 14, 2010

Hi all, when dealt AA or KK in BB on the very first hand of a single table SnG with 4 - 5 limpers - especially one from UTG - is a large raise or a shove more likely to induce a call?

It seems on the rare occasions that I have such good holdings in this situation that a 6x - 8x BB (sometimes even as low as 4xBB) raise usually causes folding all around. In other games where the Premium PP is in someone else's hands, given some limpers - they shove and usually gets at least one caller sometimes more.

So the question is, does a first hand shove get more callers than a "proper raise" due to players thinking the shover is an idiot/donk or whatever, and if I am holding such a hand and want the callers will I get a caller with a shove when the same individual may have folded to a pre flop raise?

I guess taking all of the limped bets is nice, but I would rather get better action. Should I lower my raise to a min raise or even just 3xBB raise hoping for a re-raise/shove or one or two callers? Any thoughts appreciated. And this is only dealing with BB or SB play.

moeraj · Mar 14, 2010

With 4 or 5 limpers I actually don't think it's such a bad play to move big early in micro tourney. There is an excellent chance you will get called by that a-j who just limped. Personally i would prefer to 3bet and add a bb for every limper. I am confident in my play and feel I don't need to flop cards so early. Remember that any ace rag can take down your kk by flopping an ace so it's simply not worth the risk to me so early on.

xXSmuggla · Mar 14, 2010

With that many limpers I would definitely push at the beginning. Psych wise IO think a villian will be more likely to call just BC its the first hand and he hasnt spent too much time in the tourny. As you go on, ppl want to make the time they invested into something. But at the very first hand they are more likely to call for that reason

cjatud2012 · Mar 15, 2010

jernest said:
Hi all, when dealt AA or KK in BB on the very first hand of a single table SnG with 4 - 5 limpers - especially one from UTG - is a large raise or a shove more likely to induce a call?

It seems on the rare occasions that I have such good holdings in this situation that a 6x - 8x BB (sometimes even as low as 4xBB) raise usually causes folding all around. In other games where the Premium PP is in someone else's hands, given some limpers - they shove and usually gets at least one caller sometimes more.

So the question is, does a first hand shove get more callers than a "proper raise" due to players thinking the shover is an idiot/donk or whatever, and if I am holding such a hand and want the callers will I get a caller with a shove when the same individual may have folded to a pre flop raise?

I guess taking all of the limped bets is nice, but I would rather get better action. Should I lower my raise to a min raise or even just 3xBB raise hoping for a re-raise/shove or one or two callers? Any thoughts appreciated. And this is only dealing with BB or SB play.

You don't want to play AA or KK multi-way. If you 2x-3x raise behind 4-5 limpers, you're begging to be sucked out on. Rather, you need to raise the 6x-8x you suggested and narrow the field. If it's still early in the SNG, I don't think shoving is a good idea, just because you're really not going to get called that often. If you're later in the tournament and have around 20 BB's left, you can try to shove.

If you take down the pot pre, that's a good result, or at least, it's better than offering implied odds and stacking off when you fall behind. Hopefully, you'll get no more than two callers (getting heads-up would be ideal), and you can feel more comfortable about getting stacks in without improving on the flop.

jernest · Mar 15, 2010

Yeah I hate shoving so early, but it seems a good raise just causes most to fold and I would like to get a caller early; if they suck out so be it... but I guess better to take the pot there either way... I was just wondering if the donkish shove might encourage a call sometimes... these are $5 SnGs afterall.

cjatud2012 · Mar 15, 2010

jernest said:
Yeah I hate shoving so early, but it seems a good raise just causes most to fold and I would like to get a caller early; if they suck out so be it... but I guess better to take the pot there either way... I was just wondering if the donkish shove might encourage a call sometimes... these are $5 SnGs afterall.

You might if someone limped like 88-JJ, but most of the time people won't be willing to risk a lot when the blinds are like 20/40 and below. imo it's better to try and narrow the field but risk winning only a small pot, than it is to try and build a big pot while potentially allowing an opponent to catch up to me.

Weregoat · Mar 15, 2010

Depends on the stakes.

matt0216 · Mar 15, 2010

I agree with cjatud. I would not shove but I would raise a good amount in order to limit the amount of players in the pot

hano2323 · Mar 21, 2010

I think I read in Harrington on Hold EM that although this play works out well occasionally, that it is not very +EV in the long run. You probably miss a lot of value from just normally raising and playing it Post Flop

mig2169 · Mar 21, 2010

U want heads up no matter what, if a shhove will get that then do it, but most likely the best play is a pot bet or somewhat bigger, to get rid of the limpers. with a pot bet probally some idiot is going to go all in anyway, so u get what u want. but if it is on fulltilt, then ur probally drawing dead.

greywind50 · Mar 23, 2010

With 4 or 5 limpers someone is going to hit the flop and then your AA or KK is only just a pair. I think you shove preflop and hope you get a caller
if not you win the blinds. If there were only 1 or 2 limpers then a larger raise might be worth the risk to see the flop. The big pair hands with alot of limpers to see the flop is win small and lose big "EV".

jernest · Mar 23, 2010

mig2169 said:
U want heads up no matter what, if a shhove will get that then do it, but most likely the best play is a pot bet or somewhat bigger, to get rid of the limpers. with a pot bet probally some idiot is going to go all in anyway, so u get what u want. but if it is on fulltilt, then ur probally drawing dead.

I agree, that is my usual play - though the field folds 90% of the time, unfortunately. and flatting here is just simply unacceptable, I was just wondering if the pathetic shove may gain a caller or two - psychologically speaking. I mean I would prefer only one caller - but with AA or KK I dont think I mind getting 2 callers most of the time

greywind50 said:
With 4 or 5 limpers someone is going to hit the flop and then your AA or KK is only just a pair. I think you shove preflop and hope you get a caller
if not you win the blinds. If there were only 1 or 2 limpers then a larger raise might be worth the risk to see the flop. The big pair hands with alot of limpers to see the flop is win small and lose big "EV".

I agree with this as well, with only 1 or 2 limpers shove is overkill, and I would probabably pot bet hoping for a 3-bet and then let the hand play out proper like either 4-bet, shove over, or flat depending on 3-bet size and life is good either way. If I get sucked out so be it, but I like my chances in any event.

The_Pup · Mar 23, 2010

I don't mind this play at all. I have seen people shoving from the BB on the first hand with total rubbish, just to steal a pot, and I've seen people call with A6o/KQ/88 etc. The psychology is easy to figure out.

I think the OP is right that the all in can induce a call because it looks weak. Also, with 4/5 limpers you need a good size raise (10BB?) to clear the field but if UTG calls the rest might feel priced in and you are OOP. And to get the raise right to remove all but one opponent is hard to judge.

Shove it all in and if everyone folds enjoy your chip lead and play on the fact that everyone will think you are an idiot.

jernest · Mar 23, 2010

The_Pup said:
Shove it all in and if everyone folds enjoy your chip lead and play on the fact that everyone will think you are an idiot.

lol so true, except at the 5s most wont notice

zenR · Mar 23, 2010

Generally, if i'm holding AA 1st hand, and someone raised 3x the blinds, go all in and hope for the best, most likely they holding an ace in their hand and will call you, thinking your protecting baby pairs

playerk7 · Apr 2, 2010

i would probably play my position and see what everyone else does because with 5 callers your aces arent looking so good anymore, thats a tough call but it is a hard decision

cjatud2012 · Apr 2, 2010

playerk7 said:
i would probably play my position and see what everyone else does because with 5 callers your aces arent looking so good anymore, thats a tough call but it is a hard decision

Pre-flop AA isn't looking so good? Also, BB is good position? Did you read OP?

jernest · Apr 3, 2010

Thanks all for input - last night I was dealt KK first hand, and situation arose as in my OP 6 limpers and the SB completes. Instead of shoveing, I actually made the bet 500t (1/3 starting stack) - all fold to the small blind, who types "1st hand huh?" I dont answer him, and then he shoves... with KJo... I call of course and after his elimination, I type "yup, 1st hand" lol.

Don't know if I like the 500c bet - worked well this time, so I will have to play around with this situation when it occurs, and try a few differant bet amounts and track to see where I get the most action.

Tangerine 53 · Apr 3, 2010

jernest said:
Thanks all for input - last night I was dealt KK first hand, and situation arose as in my OP 6 limpers and the SB completes. Instead of shoveing, I actually made the bet 500t (1/3 starting stack) - all fold to the small blind, who types "1st hand huh?" I dont answer him, and then he shoves... with KJo... I call of course and after his elimination, I type "yup, 1st hand" lol.

Don't know if I like the 500c bet - worked well this time, so I will have to play around with this situation when it occurs, and try a few differant bet amounts and track to see where I get the most action.

Actually I think this is about as good as it could get with KK. You take the 6 limpers out of action and 180 chips and then go HU with a guy without an Ace. Sweet..... I think the bet sizing is about right - 300 (10 BB - 3 BB plus one for each limper) would be the minimum I would do here but with 7 limpers to get out of the way I think 1/3 of the opening stack is about right.

volpereira · Apr 3, 2010

In this situation, and only with many limpers, i would shove too.

But only with AA. with KK you'll face an ace rag most of the times.

Poker Orifice · Apr 3, 2010

jernest said:
Hi all, when dealt AA or KK in BB on the very first hand of a single table SnG with 4 - 5 limpers - especially one from UTG - is a large raise or a shove more likely to induce a call?

It seems on the rare occasions that I have such good holdings in this situation that a 6x - 8x BB (sometimes even as low as 4xBB) raise usually causes folding all around. In other games where the Premium PP is in someone else's hands, given some limpers - they shove and usually gets at least one caller sometimes more.

So the question is, does a first hand shove get more callers than a "proper raise" due to players thinking the shover is an idiot/donk or whatever, and if I am holding such a hand and want the callers will I get a caller with a shove when the same individual may have folded to a pre flop raise?

I guess taking all of the limped bets is nice, but I would rather get better action. Should I lower my raise to a min raise or even just 3xBB raise hoping for a re-raise/shove or one or two callers? Any thoughts appreciated. And this is only dealing with BB or SB play.

I'll answer the last part first... NEVER just put out a min-raise with a big pp in the blinds in early levels. If they've limped in they're all going to call the minraise as they'll all be priced in (if they don't call they have problems).
idk about shoving pre with it... if you find players will occassionally call off to a shove (thinkin'.. "what a f'n donkey.. why would they shove there?") then I suppose go for it (prob depends what buyin level you're playing... I'm assuming it's micros?). Not sure how often you'd need to get called on the shove (in the longrun) for it to be a more profitable play???

Personally I'd raise it up 4bb +1bb for each limper.

jaymfc · Apr 3, 2010

I lol at the title because it made me think of the guys who go all in either first hand or even very early but do it either UTG or with no limper's before them . they end up with a $15 pot . I just type " nice pot " . so after reading the title I thought , oh thats what they are doing , shoving to induce a call .lol.

but I understand what you are thinking and proved , some will call light just because they think you're shoving light . but I think you got it right the last time and maybe switch it up sometimes to a 3 or 4 bet just to get more callers and gamble . like you said ... if they suck out so be it . lol . JMO do not try this at home

salim271 · Apr 3, 2010

Poker Orifice said:
I'll answer the last part first... NEVER just put out a min-raise with a big pp in the blinds in early levels. If they've limped in they're all going to call the minraise as they'll all be priced in (if they don't call they have problems).
idk about shoving pre with it... if you find players will occassionally call off to a shove (thinkin'.. "what a f'n donkey.. why would they shove there?") then I suppose go for it (prob depends what buyin level you're playing... I'm assuming it's micros?). Not sure how often you'd need to get called on the shove (in the longrun) for it to be a more profitable play???

Personally I'd raise it up 4bb +1bb for each limper.

At microstakes first hand with 15/30 blinds that would be like 270... I dont think that would be enough to force everyone out except one or two, I think it should be around 400 at least or just shove it in. I think Orifice's raise would work better with higher blinds/better players that actually know what being 'priced in' to call mean lol.

playerk7 · Apr 5, 2010

i think that is a terrible idea even when playing low stakes, play good poker all the time, dont flip the way you play jsut because of the hand you have or the staked your playing

superman4all · Apr 6, 2010

I would bet 3x the BB and hope for one maybe 2 callers. And hope one of them catch something that will get them to call any post flops bets.

Shove to Induce Call 1st Hand of 9 Player SnG

jernest

Rock Star

moeraj

Rock Star

xXSmuggla

Rock Star

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jernest

Rock Star

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Weregoat

Visionary

matt0216

Visionary

hano2323

Rising Star

mig2169

Rock Star

greywind50

Rock Star

jernest

Rock Star

The_Pup

Rock Star

jernest

Rock Star

zenR

Rising Star

playerk7

Rock Star

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jernest

Rock Star

Tangerine 53

Rock Star

volpereira

Enthusiast

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

salim271

Legend

playerk7

Rock Star

superman4all

Enthusiast

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site