Should I have been able to get away from this?

Hey all,

So I was wondering what some on your thoughts on this hand are and if you would be able to get away from it. To set the situation it's the first hand in a 45 man regular blind length SNG.


PokerStars - 10/20 Ante 3 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 75 BB
SB: 75 BB
BB: 75 BB
UTG: 75 BB
UTG+1: 75 BB
MP: 75 BB
MP+1: 75 BB
MP+2: 75 BB
CO: 75 BB

9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.85 BB) Hero has K♦ A♦

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (21.85 BB, 2 players) K♣ J♦ J♠
CO checks, Hero bets 11.5 BB, CO raises to 65.35 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 53.85 BB and is all-in

Turn: (152.55 BB, 2 players) Q♥

River: (152.55 BB, 2 players) 6♣

CO shows Q♠ K♥ (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)

Hero shows K♦ A♦ (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)

CO wins 152.55 BB

Obviously it didn't end up working out for me on this hand but I'm wondering if I should be able to fold on the flop or if this is just one of the "if you have one of the few combos that beat me I'm just going to ship my stack to you."

Thanks!!

EarnDAStack said:

Hey all,

So I was wondering what some on your thoughts on this hand are and if you would be able to get away from it. To set the situation it's the first hand in a 45 man regular blind length SNG.


PokerStars - 10/20 Ante 3 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 75 BB
SB: 75 BB
BB: 75 BB
UTG: 75 BB
UTG+1: 75 BB
MP: 75 BB
MP+1: 75 BB
MP+2: 75 BB
CO: 75 BB

9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.85 BB) Hero has K♦ A♦

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (21.85 BB, 2 players) K♣ J♦ J♠
CO checks, Hero bets 11.5 BB, CO raises to 65.35 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 53.85 BB and is all-in

Turn: (152.55 BB, 2 players) Q♥

River: (152.55 BB, 2 players) 6♣

CO shows Q♠ K♥ (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)

Hero shows K♦ A♦ (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)

CO wins 152.55 BB

Obviously it didn't end up working out for me on this hand but I'm wondering if I should be able to fold on the flop or if this is just one of the "if you have one of the few combos that beat me I'm just going to ship my stack to you."

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong at all. You got it in ahead, and got unlucky. Why would you get away from it?

Unless you think he has Jx combos... AK is a monster here.

I think you could of got away from it if you'd spent some time thinking about his holding. I'd also say your pre flop raise was on the large size so you could of walked away cheaper also.

You played very well. At the moment you went both all in you were winning. At the turn you were unlucky, because the Q gave the victory to the CO! Just bad luck!

EarnDAStack said:

Hey all,

So I was wondering what some on your thoughts on this hand are and if you would be able to get away from it. To set the situation it's the first hand in a 45 man regular blind length SNG.


PokerStars - 10/20 Ante 3 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 75 BB
SB: 75 BB
BB: 75 BB
UTG: 75 BB
UTG+1: 75 BB
MP: 75 BB
MP+1: 75 BB
MP+2: 75 BB
CO: 75 BB

9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.85 BB) Hero has K♦ A♦

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (21.85 BB, 2 players) K¢À J♦ J¢¼
CO checks, Hero bets 11.5 BB, CO raises to 65.35 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 53.85 BB and is all-in

Turn: (152.55 BB, 2 players) Q¢¾

River: (152.55 BB, 2 players) 6¢À

CO shows Q¢¼ K¢¾ (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)

Hero shows K♦ A♦ (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)

CO wins 152.55 BB

Obviously it didn't end up working out for me on this hand but I'm wondering if I should be able to fold on the flop or if this is just one of the "if you have one of the few combos that beat me I'm just going to ship my stack to you."

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

Your opponent hit his out - that is all.

Why would you fold the flop? Are you putting the villain on trips?

I think if you play this hand the same way 10 times that 8 times you double up.

Good luck !

you played well. Just out of luck.

You played the hand very well, personally I think that all your movements in the pre-flop and the flop were correct, unfortunately you were not lucky but the hand was very well played

I probably would have done the same thing. The only hands beating you on the flop are AA, KK and Jx. A shove like that on the flop is often a "scared" shove since if he had trips or a full house, he'd want to keep you in the hand. You played it well and just got unlucky.

it wos good played..in 45 sng plenty fish so you cant fold this hand..

Can make an argument either way.I think you played fine until they raised a/i on the flop.
Even then, to balance, with any read, set the tone, phrase of choice...... The call is OK, sometimes.
Being 1st hand.... I'll fold more. But certainly not everytime. The turn and river, while makes interesting, is kind of irrelevant. The decision was made and the chips where in on the flop.

smknginmaine said:

Can make an argument either way.I think you played fine until they raised a/i on the flop.
Even then, to balance, with any read, set the tone, phrase of choice...... The call is OK, sometimes.
Being 1st hand.... I'll fold more. But certainly not everytime. The turn and river, while makes interesting, is kind of irrelevant. The decision was made and the chips where in on the flop.

Click to expand...

Yeah my call to his shove on the flop is what I'm unsure of. To me the open/call 3 bet then check jam the flop is a really strong line. I had actually expected to seem him have AA Jx or maybe AK with the jam on the flop. To be honest I made the call assuming there was a good chance I was behind already. Poor turn card for me no doubt tho, I just wanted to know if this was a hand I should look into getting away from from time to time. I think this is a hand I might have to look at getting away from in a higher buy in tourney a small percentage of the time but it's probably a profitable enough call at micro SNG stakes to call most of the time

EarnDAStack said:

Yeah my call to his shove on the flop is what I'm unsure of. To me the open/call 3 bet then check jam the flop is a really strong line. I had actually expected to seem him have AA Jx or maybe AK with the jam on the flop. To be honest I made the call assuming there was a good chance I was behind already. Poor turn card for me no doubt tho, I just wanted to know if this was a hand I should look into getting away from from time to time. I think this is a hand I might have to look at getting away from in a higher buy in tourney a small percentage of the time but it's probably a profitable enough call at micro SNG stakes to call most of the time

Click to expand...

Good summation. Easier said than done, but forget the river n turn. And forget the result. Can/should you get away from some/most of the time. Probably. Always fold. NO. Give 'em a GG and on to the next.

No harm no foul

EarnDAStack said:

Hey all,

So I was wondering what some on your thoughts on this hand are and if you would be able to get away from it. To set the situation it's the first hand in a 45 man regular blind length SNG.


PokerStars - 10/20 Ante 3 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 75 BB
SB: 75 BB
BB: 75 BB
UTG: 75 BB
UTG+1: 75 BB
MP: 75 BB
MP+1: 75 BB
MP+2: 75 BB
CO: 75 BB

9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.85 BB) Hero has K♦ A♦

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (21.85 BB, 2 players) K♣ J♦ J♠
CO checks, Hero bets 11.5 BB, CO raises to 65.35 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 53.85 BB and is all-in

Turn: (152.55 BB, 2 players) Q♥

River: (152.55 BB, 2 players) 6♣

CO shows Q♠ K♥ (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)

Hero shows K♦ A♦ (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)

CO wins 152.55 BB

Obviously it didn't end up working out for me on this hand but I'm wondering if I should be able to fold on the flop or if this is just one of the "if you have one of the few combos that beat me I'm just going to ship my stack to you."

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

I think im calling 80% of the time. I would assume you don't have too much information on the player at this point... and you are sooo strong. You made the right play and like you said just didn't work out. No harm no foul. Thanks for sharing

Travis
BCP - horseshoebhole

Everything was well played, you had the best hand on the flop with the best kicker, he had only 3 outs to catch his lady, and you just had no luck.

EarnDAStack said:

Hey all,

So I was wondering what some on your thoughts on this hand are and if you would be able to get away from it. To set the situation it's the first hand in a 45 man regular blind length SNG.


PokerStars - 10/20 Ante 3 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 75 BB
SB: 75 BB
BB: 75 BB
UTG: 75 BB
UTG+1: 75 BB
MP: 75 BB
MP+1: 75 BB
MP+2: 75 BB
CO: 75 BB

9 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.85 BB) Hero has K♦ A♦

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (21.85 BB, 2 players) K♣ J♦ J♠
CO checks, Hero bets 11.5 BB, CO raises to 65.35 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 53.85 BB and is all-in

Turn: (152.55 BB, 2 players) Q♥

River: (152.55 BB, 2 players) 6♣

CO shows Q♠ K♥ (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)

Hero shows K♦ A♦ (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)

CO wins 152.55 BB

Obviously it didn't end up working out for me on this hand but I'm wondering if I should be able to fold on the flop or if this is just one of the "if you have one of the few combos that beat me I'm just going to ship my stack to you."

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

Just because it didn't work out this time does not mean you made a bad decision or bad play. You made the right move. You could have folded because of the two jacks, but I have to think that the odds are better that someone with a KJ or JT or something like that would opt for the slow play of just calling. Not all the time, but most of the time. If you have a read on a player, maybe you can give yourself more reasons to fold in that type of hand, but since this was the first hand, I'm guessing that wasn't really an option here.

I think I would have done the same, and although some might disagree with me, I don't think there is anything wrong with how you played it. The odds were 75.15% to 13.13% with 11.72% to chop. You still had 15.91% to win after the turn.

With that said, I think there is something to say about a more cautious approach, but I just don't know how much or often it pays off to be on the cautious side and fold to that type of post flop re raise and board texture. I still think the odds are greater that the person would slow play the trip kings, and would almost certainly slow play the full house/quads, and since its impossible for him to best your top pair/top kicker with a flopped two pair, I think calling his check raise/jam was the right move.

EarnDAStack said:

Yeah my call to his shove on the flop is what I'm unsure of. To me the open/call 3 bet then check jam the flop is a really strong line. I had actually expected to seem him have AA Jx or maybe AK with the jam on the flop. To be honest I made the call assuming there was a good chance I was behind already. Poor turn card for me no doubt tho, I just wanted to know if this was a hand I should look into getting away from from time to time. I think this is a hand I might have to look at getting away from in a higher buy in tourney a small percentage of the time but it's probably a profitable enough call at micro SNG stakes to call most of the time

Click to expand...

Saw this after my first post, thought I would add some.

I actually think you will see the same check raise move more often in high stake games with higher skilled players. They will likely put you on an accurate range and put you to the test as a bluff or semi bluff. They could also play against those common/known expectations and check raise with the JT or KJ, hoping that you misjudge them and call them with your top pair top kicker.

This is why I can understand why you are asking these questions about folding this kind of hand more often; it is just so hard to say what each individual player might do in that situation, because what each player likes to do in those spots varies so much. Some like to check raise like that with the nuts, running the risk of driving their prey away while also gambling that their opponent will think they don't have the nuts becauseof the way the opponent surmises the check raise/over bet must be a bluff/semi bluff because they expect the nuts to be slow played.

Also, I'm not sure that it is a good strategy to be playing hands differently based only on the amount of the game's buy in. To me that just sounds way too much like playing as scared money. I can understand playing a bit differently when facing the higher caliber players that you will often face in the high stakes, but only in terms of adjusting to their way of playing, like tying to do a bit more bluff catching, and smaller things like that. But not unless you have the proper reads; don't just step into a high/mid stake game and automatically think every single opponent you tangle with is phil ivey, bluffing you with 27 off every time.

Carl Trooper said:

Nothing wrong at all. You got it in ahead, and got unlucky. Why would you get away from it?

Unless you think he has Jx combos... AK is a monster here.

Click to expand...

This is true. You want to get it in when you know you have the best hand.

What do you mean by "be able to get away from this"? You had te best hand on the flop and would win most times. If you had access to their pocket cards there is no way you could fold this. That means you made the correct decision with the information available up to that point. Got unlucky on the turn, is all.

I would have probably folded because of Jx worry. Though if I knew he had that I'd call all day everyday. The all in on flop felt kinda weak though sometimes player 35% do that with Jx. You got it in pretty good, best hand pre by signif % best hand flop by even larger %. Play more hands and pray the fish sticks around to play the hand the way he did.

VMVarga said:

Saw this after my first post, thought I would add some.

I actually think you will see the same check raise move more often in high stake games with higher skilled players. They will likely put you on an accurate range and put you to the test as a bluff or semi bluff. They could also play against those common/known expectations and check raise with the JT or KJ, hoping that you misjudge them and call them with your top pair top kicker.

This is why I can understand why you are asking these questions about folding this kind of hand more often; it is just so hard to say what each individual player might do in that situation, because what each player likes to do in those spots varies so much. Some like to check raise like that with the nuts, running the risk of driving their prey away while also gambling that their opponent will think they don't have the nuts becauseof the way the opponent surmises the check raise/over bet must be a bluff/semi bluff because they expect the nuts to be slow played.

Also, I'm not sure that it is a good strategy to be playing hands differently based only on the amount of the game's buy in. To me that just sounds way too much like playing as scared money. I can understand playing a bit differently when facing the higher caliber players that you will often face in the high stakes, but only in terms of adjusting to their way of playing, like tying to do a bit more bluff catching, and smaller things like that. But not unless you have the proper reads; don't just step into a high/mid stake game and automatically think every single opponent you tangle with is phil ivey, bluffing you with 27 off every time.

Click to expand...

Yeah I true. I'm just coming back to poker after a while, I used to play NL2/NL5 but I've started to have a growing interest in tournament play as well. I'm playing $0.25 sit and goes and only randomly play $0.55 tourneys so I don't quite know about scared money lol But I do agree that I shouldn't be playing different buy in levels differently. What I had meant there is that given it was such a low buy in level I should almost call every time because my opponents will have so much more garbage and be playing it worse than people at a higher lever but I started at the lowest buy in to solidify my game so making adjustments that are so rigid really doesn't seem smart on my part. I think I should be getting away from this hand some percentage of the time and I guess this is a good chance to use Flopzila to find that number! And thank you, I really appreciate you pointing that out or I would have been developing bad habits.

5pAce_C0wb0y said:

I think you could of got away from it if you'd spent some time thinking about his holding. I'd also say your pre flop raise was on the large size so you could of walked away cheaper also.

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Yeah I definitely think this is a hand I should be folding some of the time.What size 3 bet preflop do you think would have been more appropriate? Now that you point that out I'm sure my bet sizing is probably really off in a lot of spots. I never really thought to work on it

EarnDAStack said:

Yeah I definitely think this is a hand I should be folding some of the time.What size 3 bet preflop do you think would have been more appropriate? Now that you point that out I'm sure my bet sizing is probably really off in a lot of spots. I never really thought to work on it

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I'd of raised it to 6 or 7bb in this situation to me it looks stronger, the raise to 9.5bb to me looks like you didn't want a call which would suggest a weaker holding. As its so early in the tourney we can only speculate as no real info on opponent but I'd of said if you'd raised to 6bb he would still call but he'd probably fold to a 3/4 pot flop bet and if he had raised all in you would of found an easier fold. I know its hard as we know your ahead on the flop but so early in the tourney with little info on opponent and his level off aggression folding becomes a no brainer to me as in hold em anything can happen with 2 cards to come and it usually does!

I mean you could have gotten away from it, but why would you want to? Unless you have good reads from other games and can put him on precisely Jx or AA I'm fistpump calling off here. Most people don't just spaz it in the middle when they flop trips and while AA is definitely in his preflop range- maybe even less than normal because he flatted your 3bet preflop but no way am I not wating to gii here.

villains range is so wide there. He could be raising any 2 most of the time. We cannot put villain on JJ-AA or AK. Villain only calls the 3-bet. Villain should be shoving over the top with these hands and not just calling the 3-bet. Villain is definitely behind. Your 3-bet maybe a little on the large side and may seem like your just stealing a small percent of the time but, when villain just calls, we have to assume we are ahead a lot of the time. Hitting the flop as hard as you did, you cannot get away from that. On that flop I consider villains range to consist of hands like ATs,AJ-AQ, KJs-KQs, KQo, 66-99. You are well ahead of his range here. Calling the shove was the right move. Seems villain is just a fish. My opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wait4ItKid said:

villains range is so wide there. He could be raising any 2 most of the time. We cannot put villain on JJ-AA or AK. Villain only calls the 3-bet. Villain should be shoving over the top with these hands and not just calling the 3-bet. Villain is definitely behind. Your 3-bet maybe a little on the large side and may seem like your just stealing a small percent of the time but, when villain just calls, we have to assume we are ahead a lot of the time. Hitting the flop as hard as you did, you cannot get away from that. On that flop I consider villains range to consist of hands like ATs,AJ-AQ, KJs-KQs, KQo, 66-99. You are well ahead of his range here. Calling the shove was the right move. Seems villain is just a fish. My opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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We can't discount JJ-aa or ak because the villain only calls the 3 bet for 2 reasons 1. He should only reraise with these 80% of the time 2. The large 3 bet invites the call to get additional value later on. I'd discount 66-99 from villains range on flop he's clearly not going all in with under pairs. His range is more like AK-A10, KK-K10, QQ-Q10, JJ-J10 some of these are unlikely given the all in but players at this level often get over excited and go all in rather than trying to extract value. So 6 hands in his range beat AK, 1 hand matches it and 5 that can improve with 1 card to beating AK. That's 12 of 13 potential holding's that draw, beat or can improve on AK. Is the villain a fish probably not but could of played better.