Should I Fire a Third Barrel Bluff?

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bigfry

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This is a recent hand from my first live tournament game. It is a 10 handed game, with most people at or near 15,000 chips and I have about 30,000 chips after winning an earlier hand against villain. This hand occurred about 30 minutes into the tournament.

Hero - Cutoff (~30,000 chips)
Villain - Button (~25,000 chips)

Blinds are 100/200 with big blind ante of 200

4 limpers ahead of Hero, who is in the Cutoff with Ace Jack off suit, and decides to raise to 1,000.

Villain in the Button calls, and an early position player (a player who limped) also calls.

Pot is at 4100 pre-flop.

Flop comes K Q 9 rainbow, early position player checks to Hero, and Hero C-bets for 2000. Villain calls, and the early position player folds.

Turn brings an off-suit 5, so now there are no flush possibilities.

Hero decides to bet again for 5,000 into a 8,100 pot.

Villain calls.

River comes a 2, and Hero fires a third barrel for 7,000 into a pot of 18,100.

Villain snap calls and shows Ace 9 off-suit for middle pair and wins the pot.

After a few more hours of playing in this tournament, I realized that villain was calling all the way down with Ace or King high on wet boards. Had I known this, I would not have tried to bluff him earlier in the tournament.

As for this hand, how should I have played it differently? I am a cash game player, and started poker about 3 months ago and have played in 3 live cash games.

Thank you in advance for your feedback and tips :)
 
Maikychan

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Sometimes it's good to make 3-barrel bluff attempts on the river by playing OOP, but that depends a lot on the villain who's up against you! If he was a regular player, your bluff would be good and he have folded his A9o. But in my view he should be a calling station by taking his average pair to the showdown with your bets showing such strength.

I think your move is good against a regular but not against a fish/calling station.
Remember; NEVER bluffs a fish/calling station (only play by value).
 
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scubed

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This hand occurred about 30 minutes into the tournament
30 minutes into the tournament you had probably seen ~12 hands. This is likely a bit too early to attempt to run a bluff as you don't have a good idea about your opponents tendencies.

I like repping a K with the c-bet on the flop, but when you got called - my inclination would be to slow down and try to get to showdown without putting more chips in the pot. My primary reason for this line is that we don't have a lot of information on the way our opponents are playing. I recognize this line would be conservative, but since we don't have a lot of information I think we have to assume we are beat by at least a pair. If Villain bets, fold (can't win the tournament in the first hour).

I hope you were able to take full advantage of this guy later when you had the nuts!
 
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discintildeath

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tough call

You gotta know when to bluff and doing it so early in a tournament can get you into trouble later when you really might need to bluff... also this guy seems like he either had a really good read on the other guy or he is indeed a calling station.
 
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Zikasamaster

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I think in these situation3 barrel is good,i dont know how he call there ....but ok....
 
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Three Barrell bluffs in my opinion should only be attempted when you are certain your opponents hand is weak enough ergo bottom two thirds of winning hands and that your place in the tourney is not compromised by bluffing that quantity.
 
DomGov

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Bluffing should be used extremely sparingly in the micros.
Don't bluff the fish, save bluffs for the good players.

This also applies heavily to homegames, bar games, $1/2 live..

Don't use them too much unless you are playing $2/5 live, or $10+ tourneys online, BUT, to answer the original question.. yes, I'd lean more towards the aggression in most spots, especially when you're more or less stuck on what to do, aggression works better so much more of the time.. that, figuring the times you do get called behind, it's still +EV thanks to your fold equity from how often you don't get called.
 
MemphisGrind

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This is a recent hand from my first live tournament game. It is a 10 handed game, with most people at or near 15,000 chips and I have about 30,000 chips after winning an earlier hand against villain. This hand occurred about 30 minutes into the tournament.

Hero - Cutoff (~30,000 chips)
Villain - Button (~25,000 chips)

Blinds are 100/200 with big blind ante of 200

4 limpers ahead of Hero, who is in the Cutoff with Ace Jack off suit, and decides to raise to 1,000.

Villain in the Button calls, and an early position player (a player who limped) also calls.

Pot is at 4100 pre-flop.

Flop comes K Q 9 rainbow, early position player checks to Hero, and Hero C-bets for 2000. Villain calls, and the early position player folds.

Turn brings an off-suit 5, so now there are no flush possibilities.

Hero decides to bet again for 5,000 into a 8,100 pot.

Villain calls.

River comes a 2, and Hero fires a third barrel for 7,000 into a pot of 18,100.

Villain snap calls and shows Ace 9 off-suit for middle pair and wins the pot.

After a few more hours of playing in this tournament, I realized that villain was calling all the way down with Ace or King high on wet boards. Had I known this, I would not have tried to bluff him earlier in the tournament.

As for this hand, how should I have played it differently? I am a cash game player, and started poker about 3 months ago and have played in 3 live cash games.

Thank you in advance for your feedback and tips :)

Yea, everyone has given pretty solid advice... Def. about the time you pick to bluff. Having no solid reads on this player making a move like this so early on.... not only can it backfire for that hand, but now your table image is garbage and that will hurt you later in the tourney when you are actually in a good spot. Also, so early on in a tourney you have 150bb and so much room to work with, but don't abuse that power if you don't have too.
I noticed 4 limpers in this pot and your open was 1000 I don't hate it but for me I would have opened larger... usually I add a bb for every limper so 800+2.5 open (450) 1250. but judging by the limpers... I have started adding a little bit larger opens in position to punish a limping table (haven't had long term results) but overall in the short term results are +EV for the final result of the hand, so I probably would have opened to 1600. I wouldn't have C bet this flop because I do have some equity and my C-bet on this wet board looks a little weak. Obviously the rest of the hand would have played out differently so I'm going to stop there, but as played I would have fired the third barrel and it's unfortunate that villain called you light.
 
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badameli

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Yea, everyone has given pretty solid advice... Def. about the time you pick to bluff. Having no solid reads on this player making a move like this so early on.... not only can it backfire for that hand, but now your table image is garbage and that will hurt you later in the tourney when you are actually in a good spot. Also, so early on in a tourney you have 150bb and so much room to work with, but don't abuse that power if you don't have too.
I noticed 4 limpers in this pot and your open was 1000 I don't hate it but for me I would have opened larger... usually I add a bb for every limper so 800+2.5 open (450) 1250. but judging by the limpers... I have started adding a little bit larger opens in position to punish a limping table (haven't had long term results) but overall in the short term results are +EV for the final result of the hand, so I probably would have opened to 1600. I wouldn't have C bet this flop because I do have some equity and my C-bet on this wet board looks a little weak. Obviously the rest of the hand would have played out differently so I'm going to stop there, but as played I would have fired the third barrel and it's unfortunate that villain called you light.


I agree with taking the card off the flop. I would call pre-flop though instead of trying to push people out. I think I'm likely to get a bunch of callers early tournament. If you call pre flop then check call, check raise turn you're looking very strong, albeit if the guy is a calling station it won't work. Better to lose as little as possible.
 
MemphisGrind

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I agree with taking the card off the flop. I would call pre-flop though instead of trying to push people out. I think I'm likely to get a bunch of callers early tournament. If you call pre flop then check call, check raise turn you're looking very strong, albeit if the guy is a calling station it won't work. Better to lose as little as possible.

I would call pre-flop though instead of trying to push people out. I think I'm likely to get a bunch of callers early tournament I like this even less..... why raise the variance, and blind yourself to ranges when you can play the pot with so much more knowledge.. AJ is not a hand you want a bunch of callers early in the tournament IMO.
 
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In my opinion in smaller stakes the only way you get called on that 3rd Barrell is if you are beat.
 
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badameli

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I would call pre-flop though instead of trying to push people out. I think I'm likely to get a bunch of callers early tournament I like this even less..... why raise the variance, and blind yourself to ranges when you can play the pot with so much more knowledge.. AJ is not a hand you want a bunch of callers early in the tournament IMO.
If he’s willing to put in 1600 sure, go your route.

I’d rather wait. Blinds are 1/200. Committing 1600 pre flop with so many possible yahoos seems like a way to get out drawn by the loose callers with a hand that won’t hold up.

Mid game it’s a different story.
 
MemphisGrind

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If he’s willing to put in 1600 sure, go your route.

I’d rather wait. Blinds are 1/200. Committing 1600 pre flop with so many possible yahoos seems like a way to get out drawn by the loose callers with a hand that won’t hold up.

Mid game it’s a different story.


Well I'd fold the hand before flat calling and going multi-way. You're not getting all the callers with a 1600 open. Absolutely mid-game a way different story.
 
SoCalGrndR1

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I dont mind the raise in LP preflop. But I do like to apply the thought process of using the information that you have. If you do not have any usable information on a player, the best course is to play straight up. Trying to 3 barrel bluff early in a tournament has repercussions after this hand as well, your table image for sure. Trying to 3 barrel bluff without a read can easily backfire, in this case, it did. The chips you could have saved would be best used in a better situation.


SoCal
 
Bozovicdj

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This is a recent hand from my first live tournament game. It is a 10 handed game, with most people at or near 15,000 chips and I have about 30,000 chips after winning an earlier hand against villain. This hand occurred about 30 minutes into the tournament.

Hero - Cutoff (~30,000 chips)
Villain - Button (~25,000 chips)

Blinds are 100/200 with big blind ante of 200

4 limpers ahead of Hero, who is in the Cutoff with Ace Jack off suit, and decides to raise to 1,000.

Villain in the Button calls, and an early position player (a player who limped) also calls.

Pot is at 4100 pre-flop.

Flop comes K Q 9 rainbow, early position player checks to Hero, and Hero C-bets for 2000. Villain calls, and the early position player folds.

Turn brings an off-suit 5, so now there are no flush possibilities.

Hero decides to bet again for 5,000 into a 8,100 pot.

Villain calls.

River comes a 2, and Hero fires a third barrel for 7,000 into a pot of 18,100.

Villain snap calls and shows Ace 9 off-suit for middle pair and wins the pot.

After a few more hours of playing in this tournament, I realized that villain was calling all the way down with Ace or King high on wet boards. Had I known this, I would not have tried to bluff him earlier in the tournament.

As for this hand, how should I have played it differently? I am a cash game player, and started poker about 3 months ago and have played in 3 live cash games.

Thank you in advance for your feedback and tips :)



First of all, your raise pre-flop is way too small, you should have gone with 1500-1700 to try and pick the pot right there, or at least have only one caller, which would make things easier.
As for your attempt, I wouldn't recommend it. If everyone is close to 15K stacks, and you and villain have 30K and 25K, then you shouldn't be clashing and create big pots. Make small pokes steal blinds and small pots, and play big pots and make big bets only with something strong. On that particular board, it is also very hard to bluff someone off their hand.
One of your two villains can have all the good hands there, KQ, Q9, JT, set of 9s etc. As you can see Villain is calling with far weaker hands then those. If you want to bluff pick better spots, when your opponents are less likely to have connected with the board, something like 852 rainbow, or maybe some one pair boards like 225, or 558..

I first started playing cash games, and after a while changed to tournaments. Now that I play both I can tell you that tournaments are all about patience, preserving chips and not getting into huge pots unless you have a very strong holding.
In cash games, it is fine to get out of line here and there, because if you make a mistake you can always buy in again, and change your game for better.

P.S. welcome to CC :)
 
bablo

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In tournaments, you should not bluff if you have little experience playing in tournaments and you do not know against whom you are bluffing. you got the experience I hope he will teach you something.
 
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30 minutes into the tournament you had probably seen ~12 hands. This is likely a bit too early to attempt to run a bluff as you don't have a good idea about your opponents tendencies.

I like repping a K with the c-bet on the flop, but when you got called - my inclination would be to slow down and try to get to showdown without putting more chips in the pot. My primary reason for this line is that we don't have a lot of information on the way our opponents are playing. I recognize this line would be conservative, but since we don't have a lot of information I think we have to assume we are beat by at least a pair. If Villain bets, fold (can't win the tournament in the first hour).

I hope you were able to take full advantage of this guy later when you had the nuts!

I learned something when I read your words 'run a bluff' - indeed, I never thought about it new as I am, but if bluffing might as will do it knowing the other players habits. I always just thought of it as something "I" would do - regardless of the other players... But you have a bluff as a tool that is best used in only certain contexts.

Always learning something in these forums.
 
jmateuspoker

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Third Barrell

In my opinion I agreed with your Pre FLOP move and your bet on the Flop but on the Turn and the River I think I should have controlled the pot Usually a higher value hand is expected on the villain he called on his wrong barrels, however this in the future helps you jot down as you actually saw him play hard on the Ahigh and xxx. He did not play well shows that he is a rookie but you need to control the pot in these hours avoid high stakes up the river and it is worth remembering that the equity of your hand in the future will help you pull pots :jd4: jmateuspoker
 
Spaceman

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What hand you represented? What hand you put your opponent on? When he called the turn what hand will he call the turn but fold the brick river?
 
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I think it might be too early to make a bluff attempt, specially in the situation that he calls a 4BB raise PF.
 
fishfood80

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This is a recent hand from my first live tournament game. It is a 10 handed game, with most people at or near 15,000 chips and I have about 30,000 chips after winning an earlier hand against villain. This hand occurred about 30 minutes into the tournament.

Hero - Cutoff (~30,000 chips)
Villain - Button (~25,000 chips)

Blinds are 100/200 with big blind ante of 200

4 limpers ahead of Hero, who is in the Cutoff with Ace Jack off suit, and decides to raise to 1,000.

Villain in the Button calls, and an early position player (a player who limped) also calls.

Pot is at 4100 pre-flop.

Flop comes K Q 9 rainbow, early position player checks to Hero, and Hero C-bets for 2000. Villain calls, and the early position player folds.

Turn brings an off-suit 5, so now there are no flush possibilities.

Hero decides to bet again for 5,000 into a 8,100 pot.

Villain calls.

River comes a 2, and Hero fires a third barrel for 7,000 into a pot of 18,100.

Villain snap calls and shows Ace 9 off-suit for middle pair and wins the pot.

After a few more hours of playing in this tournament, I realized that villain was calling all the way down with Ace or King high on wet boards. Had I known this, I would not have tried to bluff him earlier in the tournament.

As for this hand, how should I have played it differently? I am a cash game player, and started poker about 3 months ago and have played in 3 live cash games.

Thank you in advance for your feedback and tips :)

It totally depends on your live read of the opponent, and what your table image is to them. Sometimes they just know and they are a show me type of guy. I've seen some of the best high rollers on t.v. make big calls with bottom pair on a super coordinated board and the announcers say what a call or what a soul read. And sometimes when a low stakes grinder makes that call in a 1 2 game their called a fish. The best advice is to just always be aware of not only your table image but the image of your opponents before you fire that 3rd barrel. Good luck at the tables!!
 
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30 minutes into the tournament you had probably seen ~12 hands. This is likely a bit too early to attempt to run a bluff as you don't have a good idea about your opponents tendencies.

I like repping a K with the c-bet on the flop, but when you got called - my inclination would be to slow down and try to get to showdown without putting more chips in the pot. My primary reason for this line is that we don't have a lot of information on the way our opponents are playing. I recognize this line would be conservative, but since we don't have a lot of information I think we have to assume we are beat by at least a pair. If Villain bets, fold (can't win the tournament in the first hour).


I hope you were able to take full advantage of this guy later when you had the nuts!

I agree 100%. I would slow down after bluffing after the flop.
 
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I do not much like bluffing, but whenever I venture I get success. It's instinctive, as if you knew the right moment to bluff.
 
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