Shortstacked CALLING Push/Shove Ranges

CharlieWest

CharlieWest

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I have a lot of information - the charts - on when I should shove when I'm shortstacked in a tournament but I don't have information on when I should call a shove. I've had a number of situations lately where the charts clearly showed that I should shove and I'm all geared up to shove and then boom, another short stack (or a big stack raises, which would effectively put me all in) beats me to the punch and I'm sitting in the BB or SB folding my KQ or Ax. The charts work great in a vacuum when everyone folds to me (or there's a limper) but I'd like a little insight into other situations. Thx!
 
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karl coakley

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Calling a shove depends on your situation. One of the biggest factors for me is how much of my stack is it.

If it is 10% or less of my stack your going to get called with 72os (which is a reason not to blind down too much). When you get to the 10-20% range it would be a solid hand, ie. KQs, KJs, A10, AJ, AQ, middle pairs. More than 20% it would be a premium hand, ie. AK, JJ, QQ, KK, AA.

The second is how much is in the pot.

The bigger the blinds and antes the better odds I'm getting to call your shove with 45s.

These are just general rules of thumb I use when deciding to call your shove with 96s, in case you wonder why someone called you with 78 and beats your AK.

I personally don't rely on pot odds as heavy as stack %. When you start talking about odds, what you really need to understand is that this is in the long run. Yesterday I busted out by having AA cracked in separate tournaments back to back by KK. Both times I got rivered by a King, despite being a huge favorite. In the long run, I'm going to come out ahead, but those tournaments are gone. I'm not going to call a shove for all my chips with J9 even if I'm getting 10-1 odds. Not worth busting out.

When you are considering shoving, the first thing I look at is how much of the villain's stack will they have to call for my shove. Personally, I don't want to be called with my shove, its a survival tactic. You should either have a premium hand or have enough chips that the villain will fold because he doesn't want to put in 60% of his chips with A7os. I have always encouraged people to drop the 10bb rule and start shoving in the 15bb range, maybe even 20bb. You will find that you will get less loose calls and that you will not find yourself with 8 bb on the bubble.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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fernandoprrt

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With 10 BB, position starts to be less important and finding a quality hand with your cards. if you're late in a tourny, antes will eat away at your blinds until you've got nothing, if anything, go with the 1010 or above to push, even a lower pair, it's a coin flip .
Shoving as a semi-bluff helps you get paid more when you shove for value.
 
CharlieWest

CharlieWest

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Thanks guys. What I'm trying to figure out is when to call another short stack's shove. Say the blinds are 500/1000 and I'm in the BB with KQs and 8000 chips behind. I would certainly have shoved that hand but is it strong enough to call with? I've folded AK before in that situation and think it was a bad move.
 
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sillymunchie

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dont forget its all about your opponent, there is no magical formula if you know player X is shoving suited connectors then that KQs would be an easy call, if player x is only getting it in with the goods you fold most hands.

same again with shoving ranges, if you know opponent is too tight you can shove lighter, lets say you know he will only call A Q or greater, you have J 10 he folds, what if he calls with AQ your still going to win 40% of time,

ill repeat all scenario's are opponent based
 
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TCashMoney19

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Thanks guys. What I'm trying to figure out is when to call another short stack's shove. Say the blinds are 500/1000 and I'm in the BB with KQs and 8000 chips behind. I would certainly have shoved that hand but is it strong enough to call with? I've folded AK before in that situation and think it was a bad move.

With 8BB, those are definitely nitty folds. If your that intent on finding what you should call with, the way I figured it out is I took a shoving chart and plugged in the ranges for position/stack sizes and what an OPTIMAL opponent should be shoving in those spots. I then ran some quick range calculations to figure out what ranges I should be calling with in pokerstove, and was able to deduce some fun things from that. However, I don't think anyone has really got a definitive calling chart for these types of spots...you kind of just have to go through this process:

1. How many BB is my opponent shoving for? How much of my stack is at risk if I call and are the chips I would gain if I win more valuable they would be if I just folded and kept them (i.e. ICM situations, FT bubbles, etc).

2. What is my opponents shoving range? Is he a lagtard or is he a tight player that's been folding all tournament? What's average equity will my hand have against his shoving range and am I getting the correct pot odds to call?

3. How many players are left behind me to act? If someone is shoving UTG and you have a hand you're thinking about calling with UTG+1, is my hand strong enough to shove through 7 more random hands? For example, I would call a 8BB shove from UTG with pocket 55s in the big blind, but would probably fold UTG+1, as my hand doesn't have a ton of equity if someone wakes up with a hand behind me. Stuff like that.

This is a very basic and general thought process, but I hope this kind of helps you figure out how to approach these situations in the future! Good luck out there on the tables :)
 
CharlieWest

CharlieWest

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Very very helpful!! Thank you much!!
 
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ParagonPoker

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Check out the points chart. It coverts every card to a number of points and then tells you the combined number of points you need to shove or call a shove in different positions.
 
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PLAYFUL1

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Being short=stacked is knot the position you want to find yourself but at least have an ace to push your allin
 
theRaven68

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KJs, KQs, A10, AJ, AQ, AK, middle pairs, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA deserve their chance
 
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PKRNRS

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What I'm trying to figure out is when to call another short stack's shove. Say the blinds are 500/1000 and I'm in the BB with KQs and 8000 chips behind. I would certainly have shoved that hand but is it strong enough to call with? I've folded AK before in that situation and think it was a bad move.

Any hand I would consider shoving with is a hand I will also call a shove with. I actually hope for more than one shove before or after the shove on my part. When I hit then I'm good for the rest of the tournament. Any pair, any ace, broadway cards and some suited connectors if really desperate.
 
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jjpregler

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1) You can't have a list where you play robotic and if you have x hand call and if you don't have x hand fold.

2) It is just a math problem. You determine your pot odds and what equity you need to call. You determine the shoving range of hands. If your equity is greater than the equity required you call.
 
gus201

gus201

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Ok you have seem to have everything but what you need and need to know. Do you have reads on these players when they shove ?
Are Ahead or behind at that point , best of all are you sharing a cards with that person. calling in hopes here because a chart says too isnt helping you as a skilled player. get them reads know what hands you want to go up against each and every player. what are ytou playing for to beat this player ? ( Ak for 1 pair ?) ( 78 Suited to draw out because you will get all 5 cards and can hit 2 ways and he has to hit a monster to beat you if you hit yours. and your out of his range ) too many people live and die by the charts but there is much more to the decision making.
if your going to hit a pair remember you get all 5 cards not street by street so you want to be able to win the hand not double up the short stack and let him back in tourney.

Good Skill at the tables
 
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