Short Stacked, is the only option to shove or fold?

nerdazoid

nerdazoid

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Me and a friend have been having a debate about this and he likes to show me these shove/fold charts that show when you're short stacked which hands you should always shove or fold with or a strat article about playing short stacked etc...

His opinion is that when you get below 10bb in a tourney, the only option is to fold your hand or shove. I tend to not see things as black and white though and think I don't get to the point of shove or fold at exactly 10bb, esp if most others are just as or shorter stacked than me and the person im going against has like 20 bb.

Okay so here is the specific hand that caused me to write this as he made fun of me for the min-raise.

Game: NL Hold'em (4.75+0.25) - Blinds 500/1000 Ante 50
Table: Mini DeepTurbo 75 GTD - Table 1
Seat 2: Player1 (4510)
Seat 3: Player2 (9620)
Seat 4: HERO (7847)
Seat 7: Player4 (6080)
Seat 8: VILLAIN (18250)
HERO has the dealer button
Player1 posts ante 50
Player2 posts ante 50
HERO posts ante 50
Player4 posts ante 50
VILLAIN posts ante 50
Player4 posts small blind 500
VILLAIN posts big blind 1000
** Hole Cards **
Dealt to HERO [Ah 7s]
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
HERO raises to 2000
Player4 folds
VILLAIN has timed out
VILLAIN folds
HERO refunded 1000
HERO wins Pot (2750)

So as you can see I was on the button and figured my hand is worth trying to steal the blind with so I raised. The BB has a few more blinds than me left and I know him to be not very aggressive so I figure I will raise him hoping to steal the blinds but also having a potentially decent hand for a flop. The debate arose when he asked if I would have folded to a shove to which I said yes and he started saying I should never have raised to begin with unless I shove otherwise I should have folded. My argument is that if he isn't aggressive and shoves on my raise which represents a decent % of my stack, then he must have a really strong hand and I shouldn't call it. And I shouldn't shove because then if he has that sick hand I'm committed and can't back out so I'd rather be able to fold and be short stacked than to lose if he has a strong hand.

So my question is in general when do you feel like you should only be folding/shoving. He likes to show me these charts : http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/fullring/ and says they are unexploitable, but I still don't think it's that black and white at 10bb.

Sorry if I've messed up anything about the post or it's formatting, I am new here.
 
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vinest

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Hello. I'm new here, too. I would have thought the same way. need to save the chips.
 
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bnasp2

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Well with 10BB you can still try to steal the blinds and fold on re-raise, or to see cheap flop.
Especially in some bubble situation, it may be worth to keep an option to fold.

The fold/shove tables are useful anyway. Basically you should use the tables and follow them, unless you have better idea based on situation on table.
Be carefull though, because the men with too many ideas die first.

Sometimes I even have an idea in such situations:
- I shove with AA, because its looking like Im afraid
- I min-raise with 44, because its looking like I have and AA and Im setting a trap
(but last days/weeks Im loosing anything, so dont take example from me)
 
BearPlay

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My favorite part of your post is your realization that nothing in poker (not in life, either) is black or white.

"Always" and "never" are dangerous words on the table.

When someone ridicules your play, invite it as opportunity to learn from. Ask questions. Check your ego at the door. Accept what is relevant and makes sense. All of these things, you seem to be doing (well), so I commend you for that.

Or, if it is just gibberish from a tilter, discard it as folly without emotion.

Paws up to your continued success and welcome (again) to CC.
 
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ph_il

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It all depends on a number of factors:
-type of tournament you're playing (reg, turbo, hyper turbo)
-is it a FR or a 6max game?
-Are your opponents playing tight, loose, passive, aggressive?
-What are the effective stack sizes you're playing against?

Usually with 10BBs, the option is to shove or fold for the following reasons:
-Putting in a standard 3x raise pretty much commits you to the pot. If you're plan is too raise and then fold to a shove, then you should just fold instead of giving up 1/4 of your short stack.
-Shoving with 10BBs gives you a ton of fold equity. 10BBs is a short stack, but it's still a hefty chunk out of average stack sizes (average being between 25-40BBs), so they have to have a pretty solid hand to calls your shove.

So, you're friend is right, you should be shoving/folding when you're down to 10BBs. But you are also correct because it isn't always black and white. There are times where you don't need to shove a 10BB stack in order to be successful. Such as:
-You're setting up a trap against aggressive player with a hand like AA or KK
-Like in your example, you know the players behind aren't aggressive and fold a lot. A raise will grant you the same results. However, you should never raise with the intention of folding to a reraise.

So, it all depends. There will be situations where a shove is the proper play and there are situations where a raise (with the intentions of going all in) works. I will add that you should be trying to attack the average stacks with your shove/folds since your stack sizes are close to theirs and they'll need a really strong hand to call you with. Against large stacks (100+BBs) and severe short stacks (<5BBs), you need a tighter shoving range since their range is a lot wider. I would say try to avoid them unless you have a very strong hand.

One thing I like about your post is you're keeping an open mind about how you approach the game. And you're right, nothing is black and white in poker. You need to constantly adjusts your strategy when playing. Poker is a game of not making many mistakes and forcing your opponents to make even bigger mistakes. So, you'll find your strategy and approach constantly changing as you play different opponents in different situations; find out what works for you. Also, your friend is correct as well in what he is saying, so look at his charts and read and understand what they're saying. You can never have too much knowledge when it comes to poker; it's all about how you interpret what you've learned and use it for your benefit.
 
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Weissr

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Obviously if the players remaining on your left are ultra-nits and only enter a pot with monster hands and otherwise fold to a min bet, then you are much better only min betting a weak holding with 10bb. But that situation would be extremely rare. If that is not the case, then you are better off shoving or folding pre. By shoving and getting called you at least get to see all 5 cards and have a decent chance to make a winning hand, whereas if you just make a bet preflop and don't manage to make any type of hand, now you've invested a large portion of your stack and basically have to either call off the rest with nothing or fold leaving behind a bunch of chips where now even if you get a double-up in a few hands, you will still be short-stacked.
 
the_wonk

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once you're short enuf, yeah, you would do well to play solely jam-fold.

also, i know it's common place to speak in terms of bb's, but the size/use of antes is paramount in considering jam-fold distributions. so i prefer "m" or orbits for analysis.

with an M < 5 i'm playing solely jam-fold. with an m of 5-6.5 i'm generally playing jam-fold, but i might exploitively min open in certain spots/against certain opponents.
 
horizon12

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No factors , if you have less 10bb only shove , it profitable game....
 
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WiZZiM

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you are closer to 5bb here than 10bn as you suggest. make sure you take into account antes in spots like this. and yah shoving this everytime
 
Daniel72

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Another option is a so called "stop and go" move

if you are very short and out of position, you can instead of a shove try this:

call pre and then shove on any flop ... ist works often.
 
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Dagano

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Another option is a so called "stop and go" move

if you are very short and out of position, you can instead of a shove try this:

call pre and then shove on any flop ... ist works often.


if we had fold equity.... I prefer stop and go with a little bit more bbs
 
TeUnit

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with 8bbs, against certain villans you may be able to min raise fold, against other villans that defend steals(but dont attack limps) you can limp stab, against unknowns or tough villans the chart maybe the way to go
 
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pokernut92poker

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Another option is a so called "stop and go" move

if you are very short and out of position, you can instead of a shove try this:

call pre and then shove on any flop ... ist works often.

I like this play when im short and late!!!
 
the_wonk

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with 8bbs, against certain villans you may be able to min raise fold, against other villans that defend steals(but dont attack limps) you can limp stab, against unknowns or tough villans the chart maybe the way to go

Well, you can't actually min raise, and then fold when playing 8 BB stacks. You'd only be calling 4 BBs to win a pot totaling 17 (even without antes), so you'd be getting over 3:1. You need to be a little deeper before you can consider raise-fold.
 
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thatgreekdude

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If you're willing to call off a reshove from the blinds then yeah it's ok, if you're raise folding no, may aswell jam and at least then you have fold equity in your favour. Only times I condone anything other than jamming or folding is when you get either Aces or Kings and then we can either limp or min.
 
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WiZZiM

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yes opening with the intention of never folding is ok. but in low level games you are asking to be put in a multiway spot and get it in badly postflop
 
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JamesMoroski

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Yes 10 BBs or Less its a shove or fold Scenario you dont want to min raise becuz if your opponent shoves and you arent willing to call then you just lost prolly half your stack. Not to mention opn Jamming looks a lot more confident than minraising. Or U can Limp shove to a raise if you have a monster I say if youre HU with less than Ten bigs and you wake up with AA KK QQ AK AQ JJ then limp and Jam any flop no matter what the flop is.
 
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Beavmunk

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I will always shove or fold if I have 10BB's or less
 
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billyboy313

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You did the right thing only because he was only 18 BB's and could afford to fold but not afford to double you up. If he had been at 30k he would have called you then put the pressure on you after the flop. At 18k he was not a major stack and your single raise begged to be called.
 
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felting

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Me and a friend have been having a debate about this and he likes to show me these shove/fold charts that show when you're short stacked which hands you should always shove or fold with or a strat article about playing short stacked etc...

His opinion is that when you get below 10bb in a tourney, the only option is to fold your hand or shove. I tend to not see things as black and white though and think I don't get to the point of shove or fold at exactly 10bb, esp if most others are just as or shorter stacked than me and the person im going against has like 20 bb.

Okay so here is the specific hand that caused me to write this as he made fun of me for the min-raise.

Game: NL Hold'em (4.75+0.25) - Blinds 500/1000 Ante 50
Table: Mini DeepTurbo 75 GTD - Table 1
Seat 2: Player1 (4510)
Seat 3: Player2 (9620)
Seat 4: HERO (7847)
Seat 7: Player4 (6080)
Seat 8: VILLAIN (18250)
HERO has the dealer button
Player1 posts ante 50
Player2 posts ante 50
HERO posts ante 50
Player4 posts ante 50
VILLAIN posts ante 50
Player4 posts small blind 500
VILLAIN posts big blind 1000
** Hole Cards **
Dealt to HERO [Ah 7s]
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
HERO raises to 2000
Player4 folds
VILLAIN has timed out
VILLAIN folds
HERO refunded 1000
HERO wins Pot (2750)

So as you can see I was on the button and figured my hand is worth trying to steal the blind with so I raised. The BB has a few more blinds than me left and I know him to be not very aggressive so I figure I will raise him hoping to steal the blinds but also having a potentially decent hand for a flop. The debate arose when he asked if I would have folded to a shove to which I said yes and he started saying I should never have raised to begin with unless I shove otherwise I should have folded. My argument is that if he isn't aggressive and shoves on my raise which represents a decent % of my stack, then he must have a really strong hand and I shouldn't call it. And I shouldn't shove because then if he has that sick hand I'm committed and can't back out so I'd rather be able to fold and be short stacked than to lose if he has a strong hand.

So my question is in general when do you feel like you should only be folding/shoving. He likes to show me these charts : http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/fullring/ and says they are unexploitable, but I still don't think it's that black and white at 10bb.

Sorry if I've messed up anything about the post or it's formatting, I am new here.

You are under 10 BB and there is an ante, that makes me want to shove. It's a turbo, that also makes me want to shove because you will get called by weaker Ax and pairs smaller then 77 at times.

That said I do think that if you still have 5BB left after you raise then I think this play is okay to mix up how you play. If you are lower than that it is simple, shove.
 
Farseer

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It is never purely "shove of fold"-situation, unless you have less than 2bb. In some sites I like to minraise even with 2,5bb (call ofc when someone pushes), because often blinds end up folding as they won't see that you effectively all-in (they're either ignorant or multi-tabling).

In this case, if BB is not super-supertight, I would never bet-fold with those stacks though. Bet-calling is ok, shove is ok and which one is better depends on the opponent.
 
Ducbim

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The "standard" play is folding/shoving when you stack drops bellow 10BB. Its a good strategy because you have a lot of fold equity. For example when you have AQ and shove with 10BB, your opponents with small pairs from 55-77 might fold because they don't want to risk 10BB while there are some players are yet to act behind them. If you double raise your opponent might make a 3-bet to 4BB to isolate you and you have to survive a flip. Of course you want to win the pot uncontested rather flipping with AQ against small pairs.
 
zarzar78

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It depends on the structure of the tournaments and the number/style of players in the pot , but i don't agree with the fact that it should be always "shove or fold" situation when you got 10 BB, cause 10 BB in the finals stage of a MTT is a good stack, and you can play your way to steal the pot etc...hoping no one will shove.
 
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Teofealter

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When to shove?.. if you have the nut, obviously.
When to fold?...ah that's the question.
 
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mihaitsa83

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I think it's better to raise with hands that have a big percentage of winning, I mean AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ with rest you have to go all in to try to steal pot. with monster you should try to put anothers all their chips on table or at least to call you and on flop go all in, it's more better with JJ, TT AJ, QJ,KJ it's better to win pot right away
 
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