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MrBlack

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With how many blinds would you start shoving ? I understand what position and what your pocket cards are is everything but let's say average cards Q7 middle position.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Well the classic answer is 10BB - this has become the accepted point where you have only two options - shove or fold. But I am going to likely fold Q7 here, but would shove it at around 7BB. But could still do it depending on the players (and their stacks) after me. If they are middle stacks I could go into attack mode.
 
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is it Q7s or Q7o. Q7s i agree with mediablitz Q7o is always a fold from middle position
 
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is it Q7s or Q7o. Q7s i agree with mediablitz Q7o is always a fold from middle position
There is only a 1-2% difference between suited and unsuited cards. If you're in a situation where you're shoving Q7s from MP, you should be able to shove Q7o as well.
 
proud2Bwhack

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Some people shove at 10BB others want to be closer to 7BB, If I sense weakness or have a strong hand like AK, I have no problem shoving as high as 10BB. Also depends on how many people are left to act and their stack sizes as that will decide how much fold equity you really carry.
 
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Suited

Interesting. I never realized that suited was only such a tiny bit different. Thx for the tip !! And thanks everyone.

There is only a 1-2% difference between suited and unsuited cards. If you're in a situation where you're shoving Q7s from MP, you should be able to shove Q7o as well.
 
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Fold vs shuv

Thank you.

I'm a noob but learning fast !!

Well the classic answer is 10BB - this has become the accepted point where you have only two options - shove or fold. But I am going to likely fold Q7 here, but would shove it at around 7BB. But could still do it depending on the players (and their stacks) after me. If they are middle stacks I could go into attack mode.
 
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If the bubble is in play you may want to start at 5BB and below with that holding. It's pretty passive but cashing may be worth it.
 
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usually , son Cards hands regularly and bad But the media is considered posion to pay is the best option.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Well suited cards add a little more than 1-2%, more like 3% - but that's not really the most relevant of the stats for suited cards - check this out:

• You have a 10.9 % chance of flopping a flush draw
• You have only a 0.84 % chance (or about 1 out of 120) of flopping a flush.
You have an overall 6.4 percent chance of making a flush by the river.

Terrible numbers to justify with "but they were suited".
 
TeUnit

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think this is a hard question, think it depends on the villans and on your tourney equity

some villans will fold for a min raise, which is better than them folding to a shove

say there is one player left to the bubble, and you(sb) have the same size stack as the bb....then the min raise is a better choice because you can fold if villan shoves
 
luiaguila

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those pushing 10 bb do not consider them very feasible mostly lose because they play very hands dominated recommend playing from late position and depending on how the table evalue can play aggressive or Calamarte and wait for a good opportunity if you are in a situation of few chips is something you've been doing wrong for much of the tournament
 
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IF you are shortstacked in rebuy fase you can gamble depending on your bankroll. If you're in the bubble try to wait for a ace or pocket. Q7 will ussually lose from a big stack with K-A or a low pocket. Plus, try to do it on the big blind/small blind ,as you get pot commited. For example; if blinds are 200/400 & your stack is 2000. You already lhave 10-20% of your stack in the pot.
 
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Shuv vs bubble

Yes. The ever important bubble !
Good point.
If the bubble is in play you may want to start at 5BB and below with that holding. It's pretty passive but cashing may be worth it.
 
thaysen13

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This is a nice thread in my past tournament i starded shuffing to late and bust on the 21 place of 90 almost in the money (13 place)
 
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I agree you cant wait some monster cards,Q9 in flash for example is not bad for all in.....
 
IntenseHeat

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I will usually start considering shoving once I get down to about fifteen big blinds. Between 10 and 15 big blinds, the choice of whether or not to shove is situational and will depend upon position, table dynamic and hand strength. Once I get down to 10xBB, it's either fold or shove. Any hand I play at that point is going to be for all my remaining chips, but that doesn't mean that I'm not still willing to wait for the best possible situation to get my chips in. I may be willing to shove with any pair or any ace, but I'm still trying to avoid situations where I may dominated. For instance, I may look up and see pocket sixes and decide "this is it". But if there is a raise, followed by an all-in, and a call, I have to consider that my sixes may be behind or unlikely to hold up in what would be a three way all-in situation. That is if the original raiser doesn't decide to call the all-in as well. I always say that I am willing to raise with any hand in my range, but that doesn't mean that I will call a raise with that same hand. The same thing goes when I'm short stacked. The hands that I might be willing to go all-in with are not necessarily hands that I would call someone else's all-in with.
 
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bonestattoo

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I must be doing something wrong, I'll fold until the blinds force me in.
 
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There is only a 1-2% difference between suited and unsuited cards. If you're in a situation where you're shoving Q7s from MP, you should be able to shove Q7o as well.

THIS.

The notion that suited cards make a big difference for an opening range is ridiculous.

And you should start thinking about shoving once you have 12 BBs or less... from middle position id say mostly any pair above 66 or JQ or better
 
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Kenzie 96

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I must be doing something wrong, I'll fold until the blinds force me in.




As the eternal name changer points out, no fold equity & even if you wake up with AA, if you only have a blind or 3 left you are still short stacked if you win. Much under 10 BB, folded to you in late position should be an automatic shove with any 2 cards.
 
orsino12

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Generally 8-10 BB's. At about 10 I start looking for at least a halfway decent hand, but by 8 my standards drop.
If it's a hyper turbo I start looking at 13 or even 15 BB's as you just don't have the time to wait, you could be going up 3 levels of blinds in a single round (or even more if you are on an especially slow table)
 
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You don't need to wait until you're down to 10 BBs before you start shoving and should actually be shoving much sooner before you get to 10 BBs.

The reason 10 BBs is a good, basic starting point for playing a shove/fold strategy is because:
-10 BBs still gives you plenty of fold equity
-You should never be limping in when you have 10 BBs
-Nor should you be raise/folding when you have 10 BBs
-So, if you're in a position where you're raise/calling, then you might as well be the first one to jam it in.
-Please not that 10 BBs is a great stack to open jam with, but not necessarily coming over the top of another players raise as they'll usually be getting good odds to call depending on how much is in the pot already. You're never going to get anyone to fold if you shove 10 BBs after they put in 3-4.

There is almost no difference with jamming 12 BBs vs 10 BBs, so don't think you have to wait until you get down to 10 before making this play. Depending on the structure and how fast blinds increase, you should be jamming much sooner when you have hands worth jamming. The faster the blinds increase, the much sooner you should be jamming as your stack will get chipped down much faster while either waiting for a hand or waiting for you stack to drop down to 10 BBs. Sometimes, you're at a table where you have to wait and it sucks, but if you can help it, it's much better to jam much sooner with a stack over 10 BBs than it is to wait.

5n a turbo MTT with 5 min blinds, I might open jam 15-18+ BBs with 1010 in MP with high blinds and antes. Normal structure games that are 10-12 minute blinds sound like you have plenty of time to wait for hands, but you really don't. Especially when blinds and antes are high as you're paying almost 2.5 BBs per rotation. If you're sitting on 15 BBs, in 2 rotations, you're down to 10 BBs, less when blinds increase, and less BBs = less fold equity.

Fold equity is very important when in shove/fold situations. It's pretty easy to shove hands like KK, AA, AKs when you have 10 BBs, however, there are situations where we don't pick up these hands and have to shove much weaker ones like QJo or Q9s. If we have fold equity, it makes it harder for a player to call with a hand that might beat us preflop. For example, if we open jam 10 BBs with Q9s, it might be hard for a player to call with a hand like A4o, even though they have a slight edge over us. However, if we have no fold equity and we're only jamming 4-5 BBs with Q9o, a player can easily call with a hand like A4o.

So, to answer your question, 10 BBs is place to start playing a shove/fold, but don't be afraid to shove more. I'm willing jamming 25 BBs in certain situations. Above, I mentioned that you should be open jamming with 10 BBs, but 15-25 BBs is the perfect stack size to not only open raise, but to be re-raising all in over another players raise with as well. Especially in situations where there is a lot of dead money in the pot. For example:
-There are a lot of limpers and you're in the BB with a decent hand.
-There is an EP raise from a loose and 1-2 callers before you. You can squeeze play in this situation and pick up a nice pot.
-A shorter stack goes all in and you have a strong hand that beats their shove range. Jam it in to isolate with that player.
 
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