Short stack shoving - new tactics

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wilTurkey56

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Probably been used by many, for many many years, so I'm not claiming to be revolutionary or anything here 😄. I've started shoving on the short stack late in the game on trash hands. Sometimes not so trash like suited connectors or one gappers

I was always aware of the logic, but never really had the bottle for the execution

When you're short stack your range is huge, so you're getting called with a lot of hands anyway

Historically i'd wait for an ace or a pocket pair, but anyone with an ace is calling so you're putting yourself into a dominated spot much of the time. Similarly with a pp you're usually flipping at best

So why not throw them in with 4 2, or 9 7 off, where you can almost guarantee 2 live cards?

Works for me anyway.......some of the time 😄
 
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Nutcracker69

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Probably been used by many, for many many years, so I'm not claiming to be revolutionary or anything here 😄. I've started shoving on the short stack late in the game on trash hands. Sometimes not so trash like suited connectors or one gappers

I was always aware of the logic, but never really had the bottle for the execution

When you're short stack your range is huge, so you're getting called with a lot of hands anyway

Historically i'd wait for an ace or a pocket pair, but anyone with an ace is calling so you're putting yourself into a dominated spot much of the time. Similarly with a pp you're usually flipping at best

So why not throw them in with 4 2, or 9 7 off, where you can almost guarantee 2 live cards?

Works for me anyway.......some of the time 😄

To this day, I still don't understand how/why/what/where/when Jacobsen managed to shove after shove after shove with NEVER any callers. I suppose he was smart enough to only do it when there wasn't any action ahead of him AND must have had the perfect small stack to worry most of the table (other than chip leader I would think) AND everyone (except for Billy Pappas) knew you did NOT want Martin to get anymore chips than he already had.... which he proved.... by TID

Online on almost ANY level, but particularly the smaller levels, this NEVER seems to get through, even against just one person.

So I have varied my strategy. I'm still shoving with my premium hands and actually wanting a caller or potentially two if really strong vs their calling range. But now with my "tricky" "could work" hands, I'm limping and seeing flops cheaply and then trying to find the right spot to shove from there. As quick as most are to snap off aipf, they tighten up calling the same amount once the river has been dealt.
 
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sillymunchie

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basic strategy 101 as i remember it

20-25bb is your re steal range, you know who is stealing and usually you know a reshove over there raises will not get called because you have a stack, just like in any poker game the strategy only works when you have info on players and there isnt much action ahead of you

15-20bb limit your hands to strong hands

10bb because you have tightened up you can now start to losen up, at this point you have no preflop play so get those chips in first, players can still fold if they have no money in in the first place

<10bb your stack is gone your potentially out of this game, if you have position on another short stacker you potentially can steal a few blinds from him, but expect to eventually be called, and when it happens hope for a 60 -40 race without this double up you are out,
 
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Nutcracker69

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basic strategy 101 as i remember it

20-25bb is your re steal range, you know who is stealing and usually you know a reshove over there raises will not get called because you have a stack, just like in any poker game the strategy only works when you have info on players and there isnt much action ahead of you

15-20bb limit your hands to strong hands

10bb because you have tightened up you can now start to losen up, at this point you have no preflop play so get those chips in first, players can still fold if they have no money in in the first place

<10bb your stack is gone your potentially out of this game, if you have position on another short stacker you potentially can steal a few blinds from him, but expect to eventually be called, and when it happens hope for a 60 -40 race without this double up you are out,

WAY more factors at play than just stack size. In fact, too many to list right now without having slept last night (it's now 930am here)... But the most important one I'd say is ICM factors. This can work with you or against you depending on action and how it is played.
 
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WiZZiM

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"waiting" is basically the same as blinding out in MTT, it's pretty much the worst thing you can do because you are just giving yourself 0 chances to get the number of chips required to make a deep run and survive more all in shoves in later stages of the game.

The best thing you can do is use programs like "poker stove" and see just how well hands like 42o and 92s do vs calling ranges, you'd be suprised that you are rarely less than 30% to win which is a pretty decent number when you also consider how often you can get preflop folds.

So overall i think you made a step in the right direction, jam those small stacks and give yourself a good chance at getting into a stack to apply pressure to other smaller stacks.
 
VinnyStrat

VinnyStrat

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Don't forget the importance of position. Shoving in late position without any raises ahead of you is always safer. Even a limper ahead of you if they have more than double your stack size could be a sign of trouble. A large stack will often limp a monster hand hoping someone will think he's week and shove rather than scare everyone off. Shoving with a week hand in early to middle position is too dangerous because if you get a caller, you know you're probably dominated.
 
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Nutcracker69

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Don't forget the importance of position. Shoving in late position without any raises ahead of you is always safer. Even a limper ahead of you if they have more than double your stack size could be a sign of trouble. A large stack will often limp a monster hand hoping someone will think he's week and shove rather than scare everyone off. Shoving with a week hand in early to middle position is too dangerous because if you get a caller, you know you're probably dominated.

I hear ya, man, so you're saying always always always shove aipf atc from utg whenever you're low on chips. Surefire way to run it up!
 
VinnyStrat

VinnyStrat

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I hear ya, man, so you're saying always always always shove aipf atc from utg whenever you're low on chips. Surefire way to run it up!

uhmm, I don't think that is at all what I said ????:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
vic88888

vic88888

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Pretty interesting strategies. I seem to panic when my stack is depleting, probably because of how high the blinds get.
 
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Nutcracker69

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Pretty interesting strategies. I seem to panic when my stack is depleting, probably because of how high the blinds get.

It's actually a "freeing" experience when you think about it the right way. Poker *can be* what it is, about the cards that come, the math, the odds, the plays, etc. But especially at any significant level, it is about one man pressuring another man to think through the events and make a decision. The tougher the decision, however decided, the more correct event (bet sizing, etc.) that lead up to it. That's why many pros who don't want the burden of the decision will push back with more chips to put the decision back on the other player.

...But when you're short stacked, for almost any amount, your decision making process is either removed or severely shortened. You will either choose to shove ATC AIPF (as some have suggested) or you will hope and pray that something worthy comes your way in the next orbit or two. But you're still shoving with that worthiness anyway. So really you only have one play. It's not like there's ever any version of you calling off 2/3rd of your stack with a marginal holding hoping to stick the rest in and garner a fold. I mean, if that is your "strategy" god bless you... and give me your screenname... and tell me which table to find you at. ;)
 
VinnyStrat

VinnyStrat

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Pretty interesting strategies. I seem to panic when my stack is depleting, probably because of how high the blinds get.

The more you can take the emotion out of it, the easier it is to make the best decision. Once you no longer have fold equity, you really need to hope to get some decent cards because you're probably going to get called any time you shove. The upside is picking up the blinds/antes a couple of times can prolong your life significantly.
 
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redmast

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With a short stack, and the big blind with antes, everyone there is a problem with the preservation of the place at the table. I try to solve the problem of аllin with any card. Only choose this specific moment, in front of me if no one did raise. But if the stack in 5BB. If the stack is higher than that try to catch a middle card. Before 10bb forward premium card and push in аllyn.
 
bushy_lufc

bushy_lufc

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Good strategy from SB, BTN, CO but shoving trash from MP and EP is pretty suicidal!

Also when you're under 10bb and the tourney is not super deep you should pick your BB... Avoid big stacks and super short stacks... Big stacks can take the odds and know their stack won't be too affected and super short stacks are looking for a punt off spot anyway. Target medium stacks 10-25bb are great because 6-12bb's would totally wreck their ability to resteal yet busting you doesn't add too much to their Arsenal. So you can expect the tightest calling range from these stacks.
 
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