SETS

Sorry if this has already come up loads, but my search function isn t working.

Sets are a realy weak point for me, I almost never see them coming (well unless it s a paired board) but does this scenario sound familiar.

Late in tourney, M's around 8-10, your dealt an Ace and a pretty picture card. And the lag player raises in position. You call, Ace comes on the flop, you check, he bets you shove - oops he has trips.

The last time this happened I was in the blind and if he hadn't had trips my play wasn t that great anyway (A,q - but strategy for a,q is a whole different story.

Anyway what bothered me about it was I just didn't see the set of 7s coming - 2 pair yep maybe, even A,K, so what I was wondering was if there are any giveaways for sets and if anyoe has any tips

Sets are a great hand when you get them because they are very deceptive. The reason why people limp in with small pocket pairs (set mining) is not because of the odds they are getting at the time, but becuase of the implied odds. The money that you can get into the pot after the flop if someone hits top pair or has an overpair.

Just think if someone has AA and you have 77, for some reason they let you limp into the pot and the flop comes 3c,7s,Jd. You raise it and they will almost certainly re-raise you as they have a very solid hand at this point. Generally at the lower stakes in tournaments, all of their money is going into the pot as they think that your raise represents a hand like A,J or K,J and they have you beat.

As for spotting them when your on the other side of the scenario, you dont have that much to work with other than their betting patterns and what the have done in the past. If you see someone that makes a set on the flop, just make a note on them, saying how much they bet into it, preflop and post flop. This will help you with the next time they get one.

Just to be clear:
Set = Pocket pair that made 3 of a kind
Trips = Unpaired hole cards that made 3 of a kind (meaning the board paired and one of the hole cards hit it).

Doesn't normally matter but when we're discussing the strategy, it's quite different.

On a paired board you shouldn't stack off too often against trips (it's possible though that you just don't believe he hit it, in this case you may lose a lot of chips), the way you find out if he hit it is by how much strength he shows. Everyone is looking around for who hit trips (and if multiple people did, then everyone is trying to figure out their kickers) and if someone gets raised they're almost certainly losing their courage if they didn't hit it.

A set is a lot more deceptive (and considerably stronger too, since no one else can have hit the same set), particularly when someone makes a set with small cards.

The only giveaway to a set is the complete lack of fear that people play them with, if you you keep getting re-raised then you've got to ask would he do it with TPTK?

Usually if someone slow plays a set into me I'm in trouble if I've got a big hand too because I'll be doing the betting for him and we'll build a pot that will be difficult to get away from.

Sets well played can stack u, with TPTK for instance. Hurts like hell but top 2 pr or something r hard to fold. U really need a read on the player and action. Even then...

i don't like the check/raise on the flop at all. if you bet out here the villians call/raise might tell you something. but how are you going to know anything if you check. i mean he could be stabbing at the pot with air. he could now think his second pair is good. there is no way to know anything if you check here. and if you check/raise you only likely to be called by better hands.(pending on the stakes i'm finding know one believes a check/raise in the micros). but for the most part you really cant see them coming thats why there so profitable.

The only thing that you can really do is keep the pot small, this is the prime reason why i dont really like the AK AQ hands, they may seem like a gift from the gods, but they get people into trouble more often than not. usually when you win a pot with them its small and when you lose its huge.

not to say im going to fold easily, but if a seemily solid player is betting and raising me when ive represented AK sometimes your gonna have to make the tough decision and lay it down. i will often check when i hit top pair top kicker, keeping the pot smaller and not allowing myself to be bluffed off the hand, but if i am beat, keeping the loss to a minimum, its not a hand i would want to put all of my chips on the line with, unless i was a shortstack.

At the end of the day if your not letting your opponants bluff you occasionally your not playing very well...

also by checking you allow a card to come off that could scare your opponant even with trips..

say the blinds are 50 100

you open from middle position with Ak off suit. you get a call from the sb who you think is a reasonable tight solid but aggressive player.

flop comes A92 with 2 hearts. saying your opponant had 99 here, he checks hoping to check raise the flop figuring you probably have an ace.
but you check in position letting a card come off, in this spot you are usually way ahead or way behind so letting a card come off isnt a bad thing. it keeps the pot small and also take the check raise play away from your opponant. next card is a heart, terrible card for you, but also for your opponant. he will most likely bet, but it will be a smaller bet than you would have been facing on the flop, so you call, river is a blank say a 5 or whatever, he may check fearing you might have a flush draw and you check behind figuring your hand has good showdown value. you lose, but its a small losss in comparasin to if you had bet the flop and faced a raise... then what? your hand rates to be the best but do you really want to go all in with this holding?

in your situation its a lot harder to play, primarily as you are out of position, i will fold aq there sometimes if im facing a bet from a very good player, just to avoid playing a pot out of position.

There is a good thread about whether or not to slowplay sets found here. https://www.cardschat.com/f49/sets-raise-vs-slowplay-debate-102007/

Repost from January

Recognizing sets
(Disclaimer: This is info I've gained from personal observation. I did not conduct any statistical studies or wade through tens of thousands of hand histories. And, as always, there are no "always" rules in poker.)

As someone who plays SNGs and MTTs almost exclusively, I feel one of the worst things to run into is a set. I used to routinely stack off to them with big overpairs or top pair/top kicker. It sucks in a cash game but it's obviously devastating in any kind of tournament.

Over time (especially the last 2 years) I've noticed certain clues that, to me at least, make a lot of sense in terms of poker playing and human nature.

Simply put, when someone has a huge hand they generally want to make as much as possible off of it. When someone has a hand that is perhaps marginal, but offers outs, they generally would prefer to win it right now, getting a smaller reward by driving their opponent away.

These betting patterns are only fairly reliable (say 80% plus) when it's early in a tournament and stacks are deep.

Overall, I've found these betting patterns most significant when they come in the form of a checkraise.

Sets: I raise from any position with AA and am called by one of the blinds. The flop comes "safe" with rainbow rags. The player first to act checks and I c-bet 3/4 of the pot, only to be checkraised the minimum or, depending on stack sizes, the pot. To me, this is a set. Granted, depending on my player reads/notes (if I have any early on) I may call. And depending on the size of the raise I may still call, but always with the thought in mind that I'm likely behind. Still, my first thought is "set". Do I get bluffed off hands? I'm sure I do. But I'm also sure I've dodged many a bullet.

As a side note, if we're further into the tournament and the caller's stack is fairly small, you can be assured you're dealing with a set. Anytime a shortstack is obviously "milking" you he's got a monster.

Draws: Same preflop raise and call but the flop is rags (or perhaps one facecard) but two of the rags are of the same suit, say the flop is Qs, 7h, 4h. I cbet my AA and am checkraised allin. Now I suspect a draw, most likely a flushdraw. Online, at the lower levels, this can be anything from AhQh to 6h5h, to JhTh. (True, it might also be AQ,KQ,QJ as some players will play these the same way.) There's no way to know obviously, but this is rarely a monster hand of any sort and I call or fold based on a different perspective.

I'll admit, none of this is guaranteed. But it works for me and I thought I'd pass it on.

Thanks guys certainly food for thought

I agree that sets are very difficult hands to spot...
Few points by which u can suspect the player has trips is when he makes a pre-flop raise followed by a post flop big raise...
When ever this happens, i definitely think about the player hitting trips...

i think preflop reading can also help make the best decision post flop...

you have a decent read on your opponant you know his range of hands include any pair, and he limps in from early position, youve seen him limp in before, but never with Ace king type hands. you get ak suited so you make the raise in position, getting the blinds out of the way and getting heads up in position against your opponant... flop comes A 2 7, seemingly good flop for you, but its not a hand that i would go all in with if me and my opponant were deep stacked.. he checks, i would probably check here sometimes, but lets say you bet and he check raises you, well, he COULD be bluffing he COULD be representing an ace, but its also likely he has hit that exact hand, trip 2s or 7s..

what im getting at is this, you need to constantly be observing what your opponant is doing at the table (this is the main reason i will not ever multitable more than 2 tables).

oh and believe me, your opponants are not bluffing nearly as much as you might think they do.. and if you are getting bluffed off hands like this, in my opinion you are playing well.. even though in this instance he raised with 10 10. your ace was well ahead.


I remember daniel negreanu playing a hand on youtube i think i saw it.. he had pocket 9s, i think he raised and got one call from a guy in position and a guy in the bb, the flop comes 4 6 8 or something all low cards, the guy in the bb makes a stab bet at the pot and negreanu raises with his 9s, the guy in position just calls.. he looks a bit perplexed and the turn comes down dunno what card maybe a jack. negrenu checks and the player takes a while and just checks, negreanu knew something was up, his 99 didnt look so good now, he knew exactly what that particular player had i mean the gig was up, he might as well have just raised the flop. daniel checks the river and the player bets out a pot sized bet, hoping that it would seem bluffy, he says" so you got pocket 4s or pocket 6s, which one?" should see the look on that guys face hahaha

WiZZiM said:

I remember daniel negreanu playing a hand on youtube i think i saw it.. he had pocket 9s, i think he raised and got one call from a guy in position and a guy in the bb, the flop comes 4 6 8 or something all low cards, the guy in the bb makes a stab bet at the pot and negreanu raises with his 9s, the guy in position just calls.. he looks a bit perplexed and the turn comes down dunno what card maybe a jack. negrenu checks and the player takes a while and just checks, negreanu knew something was up, his 99 didnt look so good now, he knew exactly what that particular player had i mean the gig was up, he might as well have just raised the flop. daniel checks the river and the player bets out a pot sized bet, hoping that it would seem bluffy, he says" so you got pocket 4s or pocket 6s, which one?" should see the look on that guys face hahaha

Click to expand...

Great video, I've seen it a few times before. Shows that walking into big hands like that isn't something that's just bad luck, skill can allow you to dodge bullets.

YouTube - Daniel Negreanu reads pocket 4's

ozvillain said:

Late in tourney, M's around 8-10

Click to expand...

You don't have enough money behind to *call*, much less call, see a flop, and recognize that villain has a set.

The error here isn't recognizing the set, the error here is you didn't deny your opponent odds to set-mine.

Some of the other advice in this thread is so horrible it makes me want to choke some babies to death.

Cash games. One thing about calling raised pots with small pocket pairs. If you constantly call 10 big blinds in order to get a set on the flop, you will lose money in the long run. You would have to win a large pot every time you hit the set to make the odds work in your favor. Then you have set over set, folds from high card hands that don't hit and people who draw out on you. It is a plus to get a set because they are well disguised and win big pots, but a player who is paying attention to your open limps will soon have you pegged and your postflop raises will be easy folds.

jazzaxe, you're right calling 10x the BB would be very bad. You want to get in as cheaply as possible, sometimes you will be forced to overpay a little, if you limp, it's raised and you're priced in (usually I'll stay in for a decent sized raise because someone should have a hand that will pay me off) it can cost more than you planned but 10x BB is far beyond the limit of what you should be paying.

Set over set is rare, I've only seen it a dozen times compared to countless sets winning. I'm sure you'd see it more often if you multi-table online but the chance of being up against a higher set remains the same. The main threat to a set is a flush/straight, which is minimal because of your potential to make a full house when you flop a set.

A set is going to be the best hand a lot of the time or make the best hand with a full house (that doesn't mean that you shouldn't bet to protect it). The main issue is getting paid when you do hit your set, often no one will have a hand that they're willing to put a lot of chips in with.

What is the recommended way to play small or mid pairs?

At the moment I tend to fold EP & MP, and will limp from LP or SB with 3 or more limpers ahead.

How could I improve my approach?

that negranu video is great! - Oh to clarify in my original post I meant a set, didn't realise there was a difference between sets and trips just thought both were slang terms ya learn something new every day.

sets are a strong hand and usually play out really well for me. People tend not to see them coming if your holding a small pocket pair and you hit your set on the flop. Its a good way to build your chips up and i've learnt from experience that check raising works wonders here, but if the board reads 2 to a straight its danger time so i tend to raise high when this happens, trying to get rid of those people still drawing

Sets are extremely difficult to pick up on. But there are a couple of situations that I have picked up on when people are playing sets against me.

1) Check/Raise to an action board. If there is a good TP available on the board, along with straight or flush draws, then I have typically seen the check/raise. They want to get value out of their hand, thus the check, but want to eliminate any drawing hands from continuing, thus the raise. This typically gets them isolated with a paired hand, which can be extremely profitable for the set if villian doesn't pick up on the play.

2) Check/Call to a mediocre board. There is no motivation to take someone off of TP when TP is likely 8, so you let them bet into you and simply call because you likely are scaring them out of the pot with a raise to a weak board. If there are no draws available, you aren't scared of those, which eliminates the need for a checked board. A raise on the river is not uncommon here, once villian has been strung along.

Of course, there are a lot of other situations where these plays are used, but the first red flag that comes to mind when I see these plays is a set.

wobble said:

What is the recommended way to play small or mid pairs?

At the moment I tend to fold EP & MP, and will limp from LP or SB with 3 or more limpers ahead.

How could I improve my approach?

Click to expand...

try to limp from any position, and call a raise only when pot odds are correct to do so